Conservative principle(s) of Justice. Are there any?

[Agathon]

Since this arose in another thread, I'll post it here.

My position is that conservatives do not have coherent principles of justice that do not rely in some implicit or explicit way on religious belief.

What's wrong with having your principle of justice rely on religious belief? The problem is that it's unprovable and relies on faith.

For the record the standard justification of Liberalism is Rawls' theory or some variant of it like Dworkinian equality. The fundamental principle is equality in deciding the arrangements by which society is to be ordered, and the irrelevance of particular interest in deciding it (that's the veil of ignorance thing).

Conservatives seem to have nothing like this. They rely on some crap like Locke which involves a lot of religious hand waving about natural rights.

[DinoDoc]

You might get more people to bite if a) bothered to construct an arguement in this first place and b) made said arguement less of an obvious troll.

As it is 3/10

[Ming]

Again... broad sweeping generalizations...

Gangs in the city of Chicago are killing people left and right in continual drug wars... and these people would consider themselves liberals, and vote democratic... is this justice to you

But seriously... I would agree that some Conservatives base their thinking in purely religious grounds... but so do religious liberals... You seem to imply that religious people are automatically conservative, and non religious people are liberals... You must look at everybody as individual instead of lumping them all together because it fits your simple view of the world

[General Ludd]

Conservative justice:

Might makes right.

Power is just.

[Sava]

I don't think gang members vote, Ming.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Sava
I don't think gang members vote, Ming.

Then why was it such a close election? There obviously are alot of those gun tottin' democrat thugs out there.

[Ming]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Then why was it such a close election?

Maybe it had a lot more to do with the fact that both candidates sucked

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ming


Maybe it had a lot more to do with the fact that both candidates sucked

[Ted Striker]

- Punitive law enforcement is more effective than reform

- Everyone has the right to own a gun

- Abortion is immoral

- Religion (as long as it is Christian) is an acceptable influence on government and schools

- Big government (almost always referring to welfare programs) is bad

- Military means to accomplish end goals is acceptable

- Foreign treaties and interests always take a back to our own interests in the international world

[Ben Kenobi]

My position is that conservatives do not have coherent principles of justice that do not rely in some implicit or explicit way on religious belief.

Conservatives seem to have nothing like this. They rely on some crap like Locke which involves a lot of religious hand waving about natural rights.

Granted.

However, given your stipulation, one has to answer the question about whether it is possible to contrive a coherent principle of justice without relying upon religion in some matter.

Even something so simple as proportionality, and the desire for rehabilitation can be found rooted in religion.

I suggest, rather than making this thread a religious troll, that you ask the much better question, what is a unqiuely conservative concept of justice?

[Agathon]

Well, Ted is the only one who has even attempted to answer the question.

- Punitive law enforcement is more effective than reform

- Everyone has the right to own a gun

- Abortion is immoral

- Religion (as long as it is Christian) is an acceptable influence on government and schools

- Big government (almost always referring to welfare programs) is bad

- Military means to accomplish end goals is acceptable

- Foreign treaties and interests always take a back to our own interests in the international world.

I'd accept that conservatives believe these things, but that doesn't answer the question. What are the general principles that inform these specific claims.

For example, why does everyone has the right to own a gun? What moral principle is being violated by restricting gun ownership?

[Agathon]

Even something so simple as proportionality, and the desire for rehabilitation can be found rooted in religion.

As you well know, Ben. Utilitarians argue for these things.

[Ben Kenobi]

As you well know, Ben. Utilitarians argue for these things.

You can find Utilitarian positions on anything.

[Agathon]

You seem to imply that religious people are automatically conservative, and non religious people are liberals...

I imply no such thing. My position is:

(a) Conservative principles of justice worth the name necessarily sneak in religion.

(b) Liberal principles need not.

(c) Of course one could hold liberal views for religious reasons, but that is beside the point, since such reasons are as useless as the ones informing conservative views.

[Agathon]

You can find Utilitarian positions on anything.

Sure, but that doesn't address the point. I'm asking conservatives to justify their moral beliefs in a coherent way that cannot be found to rely on religion.

I don't think that's too much to ask.