The European Parliament: now with balls!

[laurentius]

Trip: Luckily Pekka is in the minority

[Pekka]

Tripledoc, this is true. And proves my point yet again. We need to allie with several countries only to counter one. Enough said.

I'm not nationalistic. I'm realistic, who thinks we shouldn't mess up things because of unrealistic utopia for decades to come in our own country. I think we can go along with the whole union thing, but we need to change things inside, and we need to make it work for us as well, and the rest of the small countries.

I'm seeing a lot of passive aggressive imperialism here, in the name of good. ****, sounds like the new communism, but this time with more money.

[Pekka]

laurentius, you think I am?

Keep on dreaming.

[laurentius]

I can point out one flaw in my proposal and it is this:

The parliament might not find good people to fill the memberstates vacancy on the Comission and thus it might elect someone more qualified from a third country.

This might create PR problems.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Pekka
laurentius, you think I am?

Keep on dreaming.

Well who is with you? The True Finns? The Vapaan Suomen liitto? Other ultra-right parties? Or perhaps the two real communists there are in Finland?

I will resume dreming tonight at 12 PM

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by Pekka
Tripledoc, this is true. And proves my point yet again. We need to allie with several countries only to counter one. Enough said.

Which shows the need for a federal EU

[Pekka]

I haven't said we should get out of EU, at least not in this thread. I've said EU is not fair for us now. But I guess you don't want to be a Finn. I AM a Finn and so are you, even if you want to deny the fact and want to be French, or European only, or World Citizen. That's dreaming. That's naive, and that's reaching utopia that will only results into destruction rather than anything good at the end. Like communism, good idea, but doesn't work. But wait.. weren't you with the Left Alliance anyway? Right.....................

I have no representation as far as parties go. But a lot of people agree with me, that EU is not fair with us, but you seem to be bending over and telling everyone else to shut up. I think the minority is the butty boys, no offense to gay people.

See, you are willing to sacrifice us in the name of EU for a bigger goal. While it seems like a nobel thing, it's not realistic. If it doesn't work, the grand Utopia, then what's left with us after that? Just a bunch of sore butt holes for bending over. I rather not.

Like I said, let's keep being in the EU, but we must CHANGE things so we can be also a realistic player in it, not the spectator. I didn't know you hated Finland and Finns so much, that you deny their rightful player status in the EU. But I guess you'd prefer referring us as Europeans rather than with our nationality. In that, you are MINORITY in here, no matter what you say. That's just a fact and if you claim otherwise, good luck.

Of course a reasonable person would label me as ULTRA RIGHT WING, because I say yes I'm Finnish and I'm proud of it. I look out for us, and not some grand entity that is not real, at least not yet. But good thing about people like me is, that I also look out for you, even though you don't want to. Of course, ULTRA RIGHT WING is considered as Nazi, anti immigrant and all those things, whcih only makes sense after I said that yes I'm a Finn first, European next and I believe keeping our power with us as long as needed, and if needed, forever.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by alva

By what right does a Frenchman get to tell a Finn what to do?

Then, of course, by what right does a Finn in Helsinki get to tell a Finn in some other city what to do?

How is this different from, say, Cafifornia vs Idaho?

Did you miss my other post where I explained when a union should occur?

[Pekka]

Combat Ingrid, depends how much power is left in the 'states'. I might be for it, I might be against it, I need to know the whole deal before it happens.

[Pekka]

And as for EU not being hypocrite and hostile at the same time.. just look at this thread. I'm saying France and Germany has way too much power and the small countries are being run over. Of course this is an outrage to point out, it's not true naturally and I'm being a nationalist nazi. You just can't reason with these TRUE EUROS, because they don't want to hear you out, they SLAM you in the face if you criticize the EU or bring out a view where you see that EU is not working correctly.

CAN'T BE TRUE! WHY CAN'T YOU JUST GET WITH THE PROGRAM! ****, looks like I'm the dissident in here. And as a democracy this STILL is, I'm the important voice and ya'll just sheeps. Sounds unfair and stupid? That's why EU is also hypocrite, let's just see how many of you have given negative comments about Americans who support Bush. It's the EXACTLY same thing and war doesn't change it. You're imperialist at the cost of others.

And you claim Tony Blair is the lapdog of Bush? Read this thread, the hypocrism Unbelievable. But why should I have a say, I'm just a ultra right wing nazi who believes in burning and gassing people, right? Regimes killed most people = communists. People in the left = communists. TRUE EUROS = massmurderes! OMG!
Makes sense as much as the right wing comment.

[Combat Ingrid]

Pekka, you are clearly the most hostile in this thread
However, since I too come from a small, glorious country, I understand your issue with the power balance.
I also think that the big states (Germany, France et al.) SHOULD have more power than states like Sweden and Finland. otherwise it would be very undemocratic towards their citizens, who are many more then thos of Sweden and Finland combined.

And that's one of the reasons I'm so much in favour of a federal EU. The large states would still have the most power, but they would no longer be able to dominate the small ones

[Pekka]

hostile? I didn't tell anyone to **** off. I didn't call anyone bad names, and if someone is offended being called TRUE EURO, too bad.

"I also think that the big states (Germany, France et al.) SHOULD have more power than states like Sweden and Finland. otherwise it would be very undemocratic towards their citizens, who are many more then thos of Sweden and Finland combined."

Uhh this is the fundamental problem I have. So, this is just for the bigger countries to have a say in smalle rcountries, while smaller countries don't have the same power. Yes. I have a problem with that. I don't know what that has to do with democracy. The implementation of words and democracy, union etc are really not hitting home now.

It comes down to this. Other folks can influence on my stuff, but I can't do it back to them. Don't seen right to me. For the greater good? What greater good? Good for thsoe people, not good for me.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Pekka
I haven't said we should get out of EU, at least not in this thread. I've said EU is not fair for us now. But I guess you don't want to be a Finn. I AM a Finn and so are you, even if you want to deny the fact and want to be French, or European only, or World Citizen. That's dreaming. That's naive, and that's reaching utopia that will only results into destruction rather than anything good at the end.

Mind telling us how EU is not fair for us? Being a Finn is more of a cultural than a genetic thing for me. While I respect my own culture and understand the special needs Finns have in the EU I dont want to fortify myself and other Finns from outside influence. The concept of being a Finn as you seem to understand it is actually quite new and dates back to the national awakening of Europe and the whole world back in the 19th century. This narrow eyed nationalism fails to recognise the fact that in Europe Cultures, Genes, Ideas, Technologies and Religion are in fact quite common and have never, NEVER recognised any national borders or soveigrenity. I think ranting how the "outsiders" or "foreigners" steal away our ability national decisions is very naive in the sence that we never really have had one. All of us must work under the same sun. Everyone gets the plague, everyone gets the wheel and the agriculture. And by the way, our national economy was sold out in the 1990ties so you are ten years late my friend. The economic decisions are already made elsewhere.

This is the core problem. The desperate and pointless struggle for national institutions like own currency, thats whats hurting everyone. The problem is the uncontrolled Capitalism and the free flow of capital and shares wich moves decision making away from the people, to the trust boards and executive boards over the Atlantic and beyond. Thats what needs to be controlled. EU is here not to make peoples life harder but to smooth things out and pave the way for better life, more jobs, more individual freedom and in my dreams more grass-root democracy.

I have no representation as far as parties go. But a lot of people agree with me, that EU is not fair with us, but you seem to be bending over and telling everyone else to shut up. I think the minority is the butty boys, no offense to gay people.

I think your views of EU are twisted enough to hinder anyone from agreeing with you, except some americans.

See, you are willing to sacrifice us in the name of EU for a bigger goal. While it seems like a nobel thing, it's not realistic. If it doesn't work, the grand Utopia, then what's left with us after that? Just a bunch of sore butt holes for bending over. I rather not.

You keeps referring to some sort of anal penetration. Perhaps thats how you like it.

I have never said anyone should be sacrificed, you just dont give me any specific things youd like to hold on to, you just keep saying "EU isnt fair to us" like some little baby. The bigger goal here is to unite Europe to prevent things like WW2.

Like I said, let's keep being in the EU, but we must CHANGE things so we can be also a realistic player in it, not the spectator. I didn't know you hated Finland and Finns so much, that you deny their rightful player status in the EU. But I guess you'd prefer referring us as Europeans rather than with our nationality. In that, you are MINORITY in here, no matter what you say. That's just a fact and if you claim otherwise, good luck.

Ofcourse we must change things. But you have to let go of the Finns against the other - attitude. It will get you nowhere. I love my people, I love this country. I would die for this country, but I also love Europe. Thank God I dont have to choose.

[Pekka]

"Mind telling us how EU is not fair for us?"

Where should I start. Oh yeah, some people can break the rules and regulations, while others can't withotu being penalized. Seems unfair to me.

"Being a Finn is more of a cultural than a genetic thing for me."

Yes, mostly cultural thing for me as well. Genetics doesn't mean so much personally.

" I dont want to fortify myself and other Finns from outside influence."

I have no problems at cultural influence, ****, we could use it, it's too homogenic at the moment. Political influence? That I don't agree with, UNLESS we get to return the favour with the same ratio. Unless we can realistically be at that decision making table, and have veto as well, then I can't see that as an option.

"This narrow eyed nationalism fails to recognise the fact that in Europe Cultures, Genes, Ideas, Technologies and Religion are in fact quite common and have never, NEVER recognised any national borders or soveigrenity."

Nationalism? What nationalism? in that same sentiment we are all world citizens. Yeah, sounds nice, but is non-existing.

" I think ranting how the "outsiders" or "foreigners" steal away our ability national decisions is very naive in the sence that we never really have had one."

Yes we do, and you're undermining it right now, as a tool to justify the outside influence to our independent decision making. Others can say what they want, but they shouldn't be able to command in any sense of the word.

" The economic decisions are already made elsewhere.

So? I'm talking about political decisions.

"I think your views of EU are twisted enough to hinder anyone from agreeing with you, except some americans."

Well, at least I'm not taking it up the ass.

"You keeps referring to some sort of anal penetration. Perhaps thats how you like it."

I just call it as I see it. Call it lollipops, bu if your butt hurts, it must be a new kind of lollipop.

"I have never said anyone should be sacrificed, you just dont give me any specific things youd like to hold on to, you just keep saying "EU isnt fair to us" like some little baby. The bigger goal here is to unite Europe to prevent things like WW2."

Prevent WW2, is this why we need EU? Not anymore. This danger has outlived itself. If you believe in this threat, and at the same time blame me for believing threat of losing our own power, which is more realistic?
If this WW2 type of scenario exists still, then why are we doing other things than just strictly preventing this one from happening? and EU isn't fair. Why some of the big countries don't have to pay for the full membership? Why we pay full membership? Why are we paying the EXTRA that is left from those discounts some get? Doesn't seem very pragmatic to me. I don't want to pick someone elses bill. They can afford it, so they should pay it and not milk the small ones.

"Ofcourse we must change things. But you have to let go of the Finns against the other - attitude."

So why are you trying to fight me? Why do you want to give our power away? Why do you want some outsiders influence on our political decisions and in fact prefer it? It's not Finns against others. I'm Pro Finn. I'm for us, nto against everyone else. There's a fundamental difference.

"Thank God I dont have to choose."

other one comes first. Finland comes first for me. Europe second.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
" Just like there is no "French bloc" "

Yes there will be. Don't be so freaking naive.

1. There is a European Parliament, and there has been since the beginning of the EEC. The EP is directly elected by the people since 1979. There is no need to use future tense, because the EP has 25 years of experience behind it.

2. In those 25 years, I have never heard of national blocs. There is a nationalist bloc, to be sure, but even it transcends borders. The EP is cut according to ideological differences, not according to national ones.

3. There is no "French ideology" or "Finnish ideology". In western Europe, the political spectra are similar from country to country, and they aren't that much different in Central and Eastern Europe. The local political cultures affect the ideologies a bit (Brits will generally be more prone to free-market policies than Swedes), yet all countries are divided between conservatives and progressists, between Capitalists and Social-democrats, with the more-or-less-important presence of Greens, Communists, Centrist-liberals and fascists.

If Finland elects one fascist at the European Parliament, what do you think it will do? Do you think it will agree with a Finnish Socialist MEP against a German fascist? Or do you think he will side with other European fascists against socialist policies?