The European Parliament: now with balls!

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


That is a good idea.
However, then you might as well just dismantle the national parliaments.

What kind of conclusion is that? The EU doesnt make all the decisions in its member states now, nor it would decide anymore in my proposal. The real point is this. My proposal would remove one needless layer of bureucracy(bad word, prolly wrong one too, best Ive got though).

Look it like this:

NOW

People elect national parliaments, a government is formed, that then decides a national candidate for EU Comission, EU parliament rejects or approves the proposed comission

AFTER (my proposal)

People elect EU parliament, parliament elects EU Comission.

Less bureucracy, more democracy

[Kuciwalker]

This is really what it breaks down to:

By what right does a Frenchman get to tell a Finn what to do?

Then, of course, by what right does a Finn in Helsinki get to tell a Finn in some other city what to do?

Etc., etc. This essentially leads to the conclusion that we must live in an anarchy in which nonetheless individual liberties are not violated, which is a contradiction.

However, simply permitting the opposite - that the Frenchmen get to tell the Finns what to do by virtue of there being more Frenchmen - leads to the unacceptable conclusion of us be required to submit ourselves immediately to world opinion.

The middle ground is a limited democratic state over people who have decided that ultimately they have the same interests, that protects individual liberties. Once two or more groups of people have decided that they do ultimately have the same interests, and that they trust the other groups not to exploit them, a union between the groups can form simply a larger democracy.

This was relatively easy in the American colonies, and even there is was very difficult to create a real national government. Europe may not be ready for it.

[Pekka]

KUci, well, according to his logics, New York should have more say than us if we were in Union with the US. They should have the power TWICE over our whole country. Of courtse, Spiffor fails to recognize nationalities and borders, and treats euros as one, and that we would love to agree with all of France's political goals and methods, therefor it wouldn't matter we had borders and naitonalities.

The open disrespect towards our soverignity is appaling. I find it not only racist but extremely disrespectful to the point where it is almost hurtful. I'm not sure if I've ever heard greater disrespect against my fair country and my countrymen on this board. The failure to see our position is disgusting and extremely poor at best. We switch places and he would have a different sound on his bell, so saying these things with straight face is not only foolish, it is also very stupid. It shows just how much you respect our country. This is like minimum wage, if I could pay you less, I would but it's illegal. If I could take your vote away, I would but I can't. But I still keep on bullying.

And these people don't even see it, they think they're being reasonable and only fair. Yeah sure. They have no concept of Union. We're not unified as long as this arrogance and ignorance goes on, and to my guess that would be forever or as long as central europe holds the power.

"What? That Finland and its 5 Million inhabitants have 12 MEPs, while the Paris Metropolitan Area and its 10 Million inhab. have 12 MEPs as well?"

You make this sentence, and you don't realize how ****ed up it is? SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.. according to your logic, Paris should have 24 meps and we should have 12? wtf?

And when you say, nah, of course I see that they should have the same amount, you wrap case and say 'we are not bullying around, shut up, I'm underrepresened'... Yeah right. And you still think this is not arrogant, or extremely disrespectful?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
It would definitely be less power to the Indian voter. In the case of a Supranational institution like the European Parliament, nationality means little. Ideologies mean the most. If Pekka votes for a conservative MEP, the guy will seat with conservative MEPs from France, Italy, Slowakia etc. The guy won't sit with only other Finns, and there won't be a "Finnish bloc" at the Parliament. Just like there is no "French bloc" or "Italian bloc".

Ah, but that's the thing: India and France do have different interests specific to Indians and to French.

[laurentius]

National Soveigrenity = Useless bull****

[Pekka]

" Just like there is no "French bloc" "

Yes there will be. Don't be so freaking naive.

"In the case of a Supranational institution like the European Parliament, nationality means little. Ideologies mean the most."

Yes, ideology dictated by the most powerful ones.

Keep on denying reality. You're just agreeing with the power grab. What about EU lead by the Finns, our ideology, and we'd be the strongest influence? OH DOESN'T SOUND SO GOOD ANYMORE? Too freaking bad. that's what it is for many of us. So the least you can do is stop being so disrespectful and disgusting.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by laurentius
National Soveigrenity = Useless bull****

OK.

Submit yourself to the dictates of world opinion - of EVERYONE in the world. Now.

Otherwise, shut up.

[alva]

By what right does a Frenchman get to tell a Finn what to do?

Then, of course, by what right does a Finn in Helsinki get to tell a Finn in some other city what to do?

How is this different from, say, Cafifornia vs Idaho?

[alva]

" Just like there is no "French bloc" "

Yes there will be. Don't be so freaking naive.

Hmm, you'll find a liberal bloc, a socialist bloc etc.. Not a national bloc.

These guys have to take in account local ( national ) politics too, you know.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


If there was a "Union" between France and India, and every Frenchman got five votes and every Indian got one, don't you think it would still be more power to India?

You are right; I think that the real question is : does the power of each side varied after entering the union, and because of entering the union?

[Pekka]

Kuci, no it's only alright if the central europe leads it. If US leads, it's not BS anymore.

"How is this different from, say, Cafifornia vs Idaho?"

Do you really need to even ask?

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


OK.

Submit yourself to the dictates of world opinion - of EVERYONE in the world. Now.

Otherwise, shut up.

Hey, why dont you shut up.

I believe that everyone in the world are responsible to others. This means that we are the ones who dictate the world opinion. Whats the use for National Soveigrenity in this world? Who uses it? Let me tell you who does. Countries like China over Tibet, Russia over Chechenya, Sudan over Darfour, Belorussia and dozen other ex-soviet states to justify their fascist regimes, North Korea etc. the list goes on and on. Besides look at the corporate world, what does it care about national soveigrenity. Not a damn!

EDIT: Took out the unecessary flame

[DanS]

Completely agreed. It shows there's a need for a boss (the Parliament) and a servant (the Commission). I still wonder why Barroso felt he was in any position to decide. He is merely in the position to execute the orders of other institutions.

While it might show the need for a boss (i.e., the process is broken), it doesn't demonstrate that there is a boss in the parliament.

[Pekka]

"I believe that everyone in the world are responsible to others. This means that we are the ones who dictate the world opinion. Whats the use for National Soveigrenity in this world?"

national sov is something that is REAL and CONCRETE compared to the 'hands across the world'. It's sad, but that's the way it is.

But sure we can build a better world. More peaceful, prosperous and friendly. But let's just be realistic about it and not pop the champagne and release the balloons with 'why don't we just get along' .. 'no wait! we can! Yay!' because it doesn't mean ****. I already know how this will be countered, and yeah there are so much people like me, that it's the concrete proof it won't work

[Tripledoc]

Pekka.
Finland can join with other nations in countering your fears of a hostile Franch takeover, any time. But maybe you should lessen your nationalistic rhetoric, or you might be considered a rogue state.