380 TONS of Explosives (HMX, RDX) in Iraq Left Unsecured, Now Looted!

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Whoha


"ElBaradei told the United Nations in February 2003 that Iraq had declared that “HMX previously under IAEA seal had been transferred for use in the production of industrial explosives, primarily to cement plants as a booster for explosives used in quarrying.”"

Are you calling the Iraqis liars?

In March 2003 the explosives we are talking about were observed to be there.

-Drachasor

[Ned]

Let me see if I understand. The Al-Qaqaa site is an official WMD site due to the nuclear enabling high explosives. They were there just prior to the start of the war. Weeks later, when the 101st Airborne arrives, the nuclear enabling explosives are missing. Conventional explosives are still there. Here is a summary of the NBC report from the MSNBC website:

"An NBC News crew that accompanied U.S. soldiers who seized the Al-Qaqaa base three weeks into the war in Iraq reported that troops discovered significant stockpiles of bombs, but no sign of the missing HMX and RDX explosives." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/

It would take 40 large trucks to remove the 380 tons of HE. Those explosives are still missing.

Kerry and his allies the NYTimes and WaPo say the nuclear enabling explosives were looted after we took charge. They offer no evidence of this whatsoever. Then they conclude that Bush has done it again.

Now how are we to assess the situation honestly. It appears that the HE was moved by Saddam during the war. Where and why is not known.

Further, it is clear that Kerry and his allies are lying through their teeth about this as they cite themselves as proof of their lies, but never cite anyone who was actually there with our troops, such as the NBC embeds who flatly contradict Kerry.

[Drachasor]

Ned, maybe you should read the entire article and try to give it a fair shake rather than just showing the parts you like:

An NBC News crew that accompanied U.S. soldiers who seized the Al-Qaqaa base three weeks into the war in Iraq reported that troops discovered significant stockpiles of bombs, but no sign of the missing HMX and RDX explosives.

It remains unclear, however, how extensively the U.S. forces searched the site in the immediate aftermath of the invasion to topple Saddam Hussein.

At the Pentagon, an official who monitors developments in Iraq said U.S.-led coalition troops had searched Al-Qaqaa in the immediate aftermath of the March 2003 invasion and confirmed that the explosives, which had been under IAEA seal since 1991, were intact. The site was not secured by U.S. forces, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

But other Pentagon officials, also speaking on condition of anonymity, suggested that the explosives could have been hidden elsewhere before the war. They also stressed that there is no evidence HMX or RDX have been used against coalition forces in Iraq.

Secretary of State Colin Powell, in an exclusive interview with NBC News during a visit to South Korea, refused to comment on the timing of the disappearance.

-Drachasor

[Ned]

Drach, thanks. I trust the NBC news report more than I trust conflicting statement of facts by unnamed Pentagonners. I frankly don't understand how the same organization can have conflicting facts.

But, I until we have an official report from the military who were there, I think it is premature for Kerry to jump to the conclusion that his version of the facts are the only reliable version. We just don't know, but the NBC news reporters reports seems the most reliable report of all.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Drachasor
It remains unclear, however, how extensively the U.S. forces searched the site in the immediate aftermath of the invasion to topple Saddam Hussein.

Or- It also remains unclear, however, how extensively UFO enthusiasts searched the skies in the immediate aftermath of the Roswell Incident. Proof that the aliens were NOT there is still being investigated.

Oh I see, it might have been hidden, all 377 tons of it. And who knows, maybe they just didn't look hard enough! Ample evidence to its theft in the hands of US forces!

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Or- It also remains unclear, however, how extensively UFO enthusiasts searched the skies in the immediate aftermath of the Roswell Incident. Proof that the aliens were NOT there is still being investigated.

Oh I see, it might have been hidden, all 377 tons of it. And who knows, maybe they just didn't look hard enough! Ample evidence to its theft in the hands of US forces!

You are ignoring how the current Administration repeatedly changed their stories throughout the day. You are ignoring the Pentagon officials that have indicated that the explosives were there.

By all appearences, the soldiers were there to guard the area largely, and not to investigate it and find out what was there. That jives with what Pentagon officials have said, that jives with the fact it would be basically impossible to move all of those explosives without us seeing them being moved, and it jives with the fact the administration said that the first they heard of it was TEN DAYS ago. Are you saying that in 10 days they someone couldn't have confirmed it wasn't there? That story didn't come out until the evening. One side is clearly more consistent and believeable than the other.

-Drachasor

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Drachasor


Mind showing me the truck that can carry 38 tons?

Heck, just show me one that can do 20 tons.

As far as I can tell you can only get loads that high by overloading the truck; not a terribly good idea with explosives.

-Drachasor

A Swedish truckload is normally 25 tonnes, but could be as high as 44 tonnes according to a site I found by googling.

And if you read more about these explosives, they are inert without a detonator. That's why they are so good for terrorist, they are easy and physically safe to smuggle.

[Ned]

Drach, the highest levels of the admin are not taking firm positions. An investigation is under way.

Kerry, though, continues to assume the worst. This is very typical of Kerry as it is the "gravity of the charge" that is important. It's truth is unimportant. (Where have we heard this before? Dan Rather?)

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by GePap
Does the Swedish military move arounds its munitions like that, Ollie?

This was Iraq - safety might not be the first priority, with a war sailing up and all. In any case, this material is safe without detonators.

My point is that anything could have happened with this material. And regardless what happened, the Bush admin screwed up by not securing it.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Drachasor


You are ignoring how the current Administration repeatedly changed their stories throughout the day. You are ignoring the Pentagon officials that have indicated that the explosives were there.

By all appearences, the soldiers were there to guard the area largely, and not to investigate it and find out what was there. That jives with what Pentagon officials have said, that jives with the fact it would be basically impossible to move all of those explosives without us seeing them being moved, and it jives with the fact the administration said that the first they heard of it was TEN DAYS ago. Are you saying that in 10 days they someone couldn't have confirmed it wasn't there? That story didn't come out until the evening. One side is clearly more consistent and believeable than the other.

-Drachasor

You are ignoring the fact that the last time the existence of the explosives was verified as in March 2003! Look at the facts! You are presupposing that the US forces had them! My god, you rail against the Bush admin for saying there were WMD's in Iraq, and now one report comes out saying that 18 months later someone bothered to realize that the stock piles weren't all there. The only conclusion in the report was "Well, they're not here". Where is your evidence? Who's more consistent? John Kerry? He's a damn Senator who's been on the campaign trail for 15 months.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Ned
the highest levels of the admin are not taking firm positions. An investigation is under way.

You mean they are flip-flopping? How apt.

[Drachasor]

First of all, even if they could have been loaded by the 25 tons in trucks, it still would have been hard to sneak them out given our massive surveillance capabilities. Additionally, it is not all that clear that Iraq had such large trucks.

When you have Pentagon officials saying the weapons where there, and you have evidence indicating that we should have known if they were moved, then it is logically to assume that the administration is at fault somewhere. Either they weren't keeping on eye on all the sites or they didn't secure them.

Guess what? They've already admitted they don't have enough people to secure everything.

And to add futher to this, it is ridiculous to say that the Admin shouldn't know there was nothing there if there really had been nothing there. They'd admitted to knowing about this story for over 10 days now, but it wasn't until a day after they were asked about it that they came up with the story that it was already gone? If their intel retrieval is that bad then it speaks of a different level of incompetence.

So yes, either they are incompetent at surveillance, incompetent at the occupation (we know this already) and so couldn't guard all the sites, or they are incompetent on retrieving intel they should already have (bad for the war on terrorism). It could possibly be a combination of these, perhaps all of them.

One thing is clear, they were incompetent at some point.

-Drachasor

[Ramo]

Josh Marshall finds the MSNBC interview of one of the embedded reporters:

Amy Robach: And it's still unclear exactly when those explosives disappeared. Here to help shed some light on that question is Lai Ling. She was part of an NBC news crew that traveled to that facility with the 101st Airborne Division back in April of 2003. Lai Ling, can you set the stage for us? What was the situation like when you went into the area?

Lai Ling Jew: When we went into the area, we were actually leaving Karbala and we were initially heading to Baghdad with the 101st Airborne, Second Brigade. The situation in Baghdad, the Third Infantry Division had taken over Baghdad and so they were trying to carve up the area that the 101st Airborne Division would be in charge of. Um, as a result, they had trouble figuring out who was going to take up what piece of Baghdad. They sent us over to this area in Iskanderia. We didn't know it as the Qaqaa facility at that point but when they did bring us over there we stayed there for quite a while. Almost, we stayed overnight, almost 24 hours. And we walked around, we saw the bunkers that had been bombed, and that exposed all of the ordinances that just lied dormant on the desert.


AR: Was there a search at all underway or was, did a search ensue for explosives once you got there during that 24-hour period?


LLJ: No. There wasn't a search. The mission that the brigade had was to get to Baghdad. That was more of a pit stop there for us. And, you know, the searching, I mean certainly some of the soldiers head off on their own, looked through the bunkers just to look at the vast amount of ordnance lying around. But as far as we could tell, there was no move to secure the weapons, nothing to keep looters away. But there was – at that point the roads were shut off. So it would have been very difficult, I believe, for the looters to get there.


AR: And there was no talk of securing the area after you left. There was no discussion of that?


LLJ: Not for the 101st Airborne, Second Brigade. They were -- once they were in Baghdad, it was all about Baghdad, you know, and then they ended up moving north to Mosul. Once we left the area, that was the last that the brigade had anything to do with the area.


AR: Well, Lai Ling Jew, thank you so much for shedding some light into that situation. We appreciate it.

So there was no search.

Let's summarize:
-The Allawi gov't contradicts the assertion that the explosives were moved before we got there.
-The White House contradicts this assertion.
-A Pentagon source familiar with the situation contradicts this assertion.
-The IAEA confirmed that the explosives were there in January, and confirmed that site was still sealed a week before the war started.
-The "report" about the search was leaked by Drudge, and MSNBC itself didn't actually publish their story until everyone else started to carry it.
-The NBC story (or rather, the second-hand account) doesn't provide any sources, whatsoever.
-And the money shot is, a member of the the NBC crew embedded in the unit confirmed there was no search.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Drachasor
First of all, even if they could have been loaded by the 25 tons in trucks, it still would have been hard to sneak them out given our massive surveillance capabilities. Additionally, it is not all that clear that Iraq had such large trucks.

When you have Pentagon officials saying the weapons where there, and you have evidence indicating that we should have known if they were moved, then it is logically to assume that the administration is at fault somewhere. Either they weren't keeping on eye on all the sites or they didn't secure them.

Guess what? They've already admitted they don't have enough people to secure everything.

And to add futher to this, it is ridiculous to say that the Admin shouldn't know there was nothing there if there really had been nothing there. They'd admitted to knowing about this story for over 10 days now, but it wasn't until a day after they were asked about it that they came up with the story that it was already gone? If their intel retrieval is that bad then it speaks of a different level of incompetence.

So yes, either they are incompetent at surveillance, incompetent at the occupation (we know this already) and so couldn't guard all the sites, or they are incompetent on retrieving intel they should already have (bad for the war on terrorism). It could possibly be a combination of these, perhaps all of them.

One thing is clear, they were incompetent at some point.

-Drachasor

I think we are in agreement. I was just pointing out that moving the stuff is not a big operation.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Drachasor
When you have Pentagon officials saying the weapons where there, and you have evidence indicating that we should have known if they were moved, then it is logically to assume that the administration is at fault somewhere.
-Drachasor

You know, to assume to is to make an ass out of u and me.

Let's see, no evidence of looting. No trucks able to carry the explosives away. Surveillance ever since occupation. GAP IN TIME since verification of existence and occupation by coalition. Hmmmm, yep, sirree, it just had to have been snuck out right under our noses. It is so logical!