Germany rocks

[Pekka]

Spiffor,

"Well, actually it is cultural. In germany, swimsuits are utterly banned from saunas, just the same way they are mandatory in France. It's possible to enjoy a sauna in both ways, although I prefer doing it naked."

Yeah what a stupid culture, they do it all wrong . I say the cultures with long traditions on this matter and great popular status are right!

"I saw the light years ago. I just dared getting rod of my inhibitions only recently. It took me a long time to act on my seeing the light, and it'll take time for several of my friends who are just as shy as me."

Yeah like I said, it takes great courage for people who are not used to it. We do that from early age so we don't get to grow those feelings of 'hmm is this a good idea...'... so for adults it's a lot tougher and especially if it's not a custom where you are. Most people just won't do it regardless of what you explain. They're that wound up with their feelings that blocks the pleasure of it. So to cross that line, to take the first step is very mental for many people. You have to overcome it and just do it. So it's tough. And you have to then try to block those negative feelings about the situation when you actually take the first step so you can enjoy it, and that's the other hard part. Espcially if you go in there with relatively strange people. So yeah, I respect the courage you have in your heart. You're a sauna warrior! ANd yeah, it'll take LOTS of convincing that you'll get to go with your friends.. but when you do.. it's great. It's best to go to sauna with your friends. If they are able to block their negative vibe, and if they succeed, they will enjoy, and then you will all enjoy times 10, and then you find out what it's all about. But if you let them wear swimming trunks the first time, they won't get them off the next time either. Just remember that .

"no. I prefer doing it in a way, but I won't deprive the others from doing it in another way."

Swimming trunks are the ABSOLUTE maximum, and THAT'S breaking the laws already. If you occasionally wear swimming trunks, say if you're with bunch of stranger, it is acceptable though that's in the lines of being rude. If you always wear trunks, then you just should be hit by car or go to sauna by yourself. No no.. it's not as enjoyable in swimming trunks, even if you go by yourself. It just isn't the same thing. Someone wears them, then it becomes a sexuality issue, and that's a no no in sauna. Then you're kind of polluting the zone and making it sexual. But women can wear bikinis if they are in mixed sauna, that's cool. Especially in strager sauna, that's totally acceptable, though not preferred.

"Well, at the gym, guys are checking out your arms or abdos, why wouldn't they check your willie at a sauna? It's pretty natural to compare what is comparable, yet it doesn't mean they want to hump you. And they can stare at my willie if they so wish, it's not like I am ashamed of it."

Yeah but gyms are different. There's testosterone in gyms, people wanting to look good, wanting to have muscles and stuff. So it's a whole different situation from the beginning. It's about body in there, in sauna it's not about your body. It's not about your penis or anyone elses penis either. If you start doing it, you're polluting the sauna zone and not wanted to join again .

And it's perfectly normal to get a glance at someones penis if it happens to flash by you. And people need to accept it. If you start avoiding it, then again it's becoming a sexual issue. but it's perfectly normal, it's just a body part, and of course it's kind of rude or weird to stare at it, but then again if you treat it as part of your body and someone elses body, then you really don't need to stare it at all times. I mean I assume you don't stare at your friends crotch at all times when you talk with them if you're all wearing clothes. Because it doesnt' come naturally to you, it just isn't natural thing for you to do so you don't do it by default. Same in sauna, there's a willie hanging so you can't really avoid seeing it, so you'll see it, but it's really not a big deal unless people make it a big deal. ANd this is the swimming trunk issue, if someone wears swimming trunks it means usually that he doesn't want to have his willie hanging where everyone can see them. But you see, the other naked people in there, they don't care about his dong. It sends a message to them, that 'you would stare at it wouldn't you and I'd feel uncomfortable by it'. But that can make the other people uncomfortable too. It's not a dare thing to go naked, so it's not like group pressure that now that we are naked you have to be too! As in 'we're in the same crap now! don't let the team down!'.. because people really don't care about it that much because it really is not sexual. But swimming trunks with someone, they have a sexual issue with it, so that's just polluting, even though it doesn't make it a sexual issue with other people and they won't be going to locker room to grab swimming trunks too, no no it's not going down like that. It's like shaking someones hand with a glove on even if it's not cold. You know.. just take it off, what's the big deal, and even if you use the glove, I won't use glove myself to counter this, but you're being weird and making it an issue, but it's not an issue to me so in that way I dont' care, but it's still polluting.

[Pekka]

Because it's not about your body, that's the whole point alot of people do not understand. They say well if you're all naked, they are able to see everything! YEah, true, but it's not about your body. There's something fundamentally wrong if you are not able to be nude with your friends or someone else. EVERYONE has insecurities. I have insecurities. But you shouldn't let those insecurities to grow so dominating part of your life, that it inhibits you from doing things you could enjoy. YOu know, some people might be insecure about being overweight. But in here, even people with issues about their weight, they come to sauna too. No one will judge them. It's not a contest and not everything is about how you look, and that's one of those places so you can totally just relax. Everyone will accept you for who you are, not how you look, LITERALLY. And that's a great thing. It's a peaceful place in the middle of warzone, where you can let loose and forget all about it and just enjoy and relax. It's fire free party zone. Besides, you will accept yourself better, and because everyoen accepts each others for who they are, they in general accept each other better then. Because when it comes down to it, for people who won't be able to do it is that they let their insecurities forbid that pleasure. They will cover it up by saying people will stare at your willie. But that's just another insecurity. I'm nto ashamed of my body or my penis, and I can show it to people no problem. Why let it be an obstacle in your life? LIfe is just so much better without that obstacle.

[Pekka]

But of course there is an excpetion to the rule.. like your family. When you're a kid, then you go to the sauna with the family normally, but when you're little older, you either take turns 'ok women go now!' or 'men go now!'. Because a situation where 18 year old guy and his mother are nude in the sauna might be more than weird. Basically even when I say it's not about your body, well, maybe you don't want that mental image. Both ways. As well as father doesn't go naked into the sauna with his 18 year old naked daughter. That's a no no. SO when the kids grow older, the they either take turns based on the gender, or if it's a mixed sauna inside family, then you put on swimming trunks. Only makes sense.

[Pekka]

And whern you really think about it, it's not so normal to be insecure about your body parts. I mean look at little kids. They are not ashamed of their bodies. Little boys and girls throw away their clothes and it's no big deal. It's not sexual. Later on they play doctor and patient, a little get to know our bodies, find out what it's all about. They grow curious about few things. But it's normal too.

The people, society etc makes this insecurity grow, they plant it and they feed it. So how is that normal? teenage girls starving themselves and puking and become pulimic so they can fill the idea of a supermodel body? That's not normal. that seed was planted in their heads by fashion and what they think society thinks is the ideal look, and if you don't fit into that category, then you're ugly and not wanted? That's not true, it's only true if you let it be true. But when the society feeds this ideology, it grows and becomes an independent entity, polluting peoples minds about how you should look, and that everything else makes you a less of a person and less liked?

Hey, if you can't make friends with someone who thinks you're too fat, have the wrong hair or whatever.. maybe that person is not worth being friends with. And it only becomes a bigger problem when this ugly entity is let run loose on everyone and affecting lot of people, so then you actually can encounter that critisism, when you don't deserve it. But that's not normal. Of course people can think that 'jeesh that person is over weight', but they can keep it in their minds and be civil, because it really doesn't mean anything plus you're makign someone else feel uncomfortable because of your own stupidity. It gives you a bad karma and makes you superficial. Maybe that person has a problem. It's a health issue for that person. Do you go and laugh at retarded kids? No you don't, unless you're a jerk. That idea can come to your head, it's normal, but you can keep it where it is and slap yourself for being a bastard.

I mean, yeah it's cultural I guess then, because in some societies these insecurities are planted at early age and fed through the rest of their lives. But it's not so much normal, and it sure as hell isn't a good thing.

[Pekka]

Let's look it like this.. the fashion, society and all that makes people think that this is cool and this is not cool. Trends dictate what's cool. And that's only because people buy into it and actually follow it in large masses. And that includes how your body is. You see them in movies and television too, so you start thinking hey this is what I'm supposed to look like.

Now, then there are these counter people who want to go against the mainstream. Girls shaving their heads and being all rebel and stuff. You can say, well that's stupid, and that they only do it to be different, and isn't that kind of fashion too in it's own sense? Yeah maybe, but think about the good side, they must have pretty good self confidence, right?

Like hippies, though they are the plague of our societies with their twisted ideologies, you still wanted piece of that free love, right? Dancing hippies with their boobies flapping around, willing to bunk with you and all that? Well, that's not a sign of insecurity about their bodies. And you like the free love part, because it's freedom. The boobies flying around, that's freedom too. Free from the prison of ugly entity. So in a way, people do want to be free from it, but they are afraid that they will be judged for it, they're insecure like that, and that's about having not so good self confidence. And that comes from somewhere, it comes from others judging you and all that, and others judging you is not good, it's bad.

[Spiffor]

Pekka (except for the hippie part)

[Pekka]

you don't like free love?

[Spiffor]

I just don't consider the hippies as "the plague of our societies"

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by BeBro
Spiff you shouldn't forget German tv for its crapiness esp. in entertainment. I can't imagine that any national tv worldwide has more stupid shows.

You can't possibly shock a Berlusconi-TV trained Italian with German stupid shows. I know it's hardly believable, but Italian TV tops German TV in crappiness. Though in Italy, there are less stupid "reality" court shows and less braindead talk but the Italian media landscape has not a single channel comparable with Arte, Phoenix, 3SAT or XXP. Almost all channels feature either the same ****-boring movies from the 50s, braindead gameshows, brainwashed news or boring regional stuff.

[Harovan]

Arte, 3sat et al. are alright, but mainstream German TV is exceptionally stupid. I can't even remember when I last watched something other than news.

[Ben Kenobi]

Then you're kind of polluting the zone and making it sexual. But women can wear bikinis if they are in mixed sauna, that's cool. Especially in strager sauna, that's totally acceptable,

So the men should be allowed to wear shorts, without feeling intimidated by folks like you.

And if it isn't a problem with strangers, why would it be a problem for families. Aren't they polluting the sauna zone by making them go in separated groups?

[Dis]

Re: Germany rocks

Originally posted by Spiffor
I've been living in Germany for three weeks now (hence my non-presence here), and I love this country. Each time I'm amazed by how "different" the place is.

1. Naked, mixed gender saunas
Well, it doesn't deserve to be the #1 perk of Germany, but this way I'm sure you'll be reading my thread

I went yesterday for the first time in a German sauna, with two female friends and a boyfriend of theirs. Here, many German / Finns would wonder "so what?", but from my French (and hence nudity-shy) perspective, it was something completely new.

Dozens of naked people, of both genders and all ages above 16, we entering a sauna, taking a shower, or bathing in cold water. And I was among them, quite unsure of what to do. Fortunately, my friends (whom I saw naked for the first time as well) helped me feeling comfortable quickly.

It's quite strange at first, as I was still considering nudity as something sexual, something intimous (and I still do to some extent). But the mood was really good, and I was soon completely unhinibited. Not only with nudity, mind you, but with other things as well (I tend to avoid speaking German, as I'm shy on my German skills - such inhibition disappeared just the same as my nudity-inhibition).

Because in such circumstances, we don't evaluate each other. We are all wholly exposed, and thus don't we feel like criticizing the other. In a kind of way, we're completely equal. I didn't even think some snide comment about the old naked people in the sauna; heck, I didn't even noticed them

It was really gemütlich as the German say, a pleasant feeling of being like at home... In any case, it was an excellent experience, that I recommand to everybody here, and that I'm looking forward to repeat

(btw, I happened to watch "Girls Gone Wild" some time ago. It's basically American girls exposing their breasts to everybody on the beach during springbreak, and making a big fuss about it. So what? I just showed my dick to dozens of people, and just saw dozens of breast - where's the big deal?)

I could never do that and not be visibly aroused.

[Harovan]

By the way, Wernazuma, your location field somewhat rocks!

[Dis]

and what's the point of saunas anyways? what does it do for you? I don't get it. I've never been in one as you can tell. I always figured it was something rich people did.

[Pekka]

Diss, the point is that it feels great, it relaxes your muscles and meaks you sweat dirt away, makes your blood circulate, and a place where you can chat with your friends. And after that, the effects of relaxness are even greater. Plus it's healthy.

"So the men should be allowed to wear shorts, without feeling intimidated by folks like you."

No.

"And if it isn't a problem with strangers, why would it be a problem for families. Aren't they polluting the sauna zone by making them go in separated groups?"

Families can go together as a whole, and they do. But if you think there's nothing weird about teenager daughter being totally nude in the sauna with his father, then I guess I can't give you any more explanation as why it is frowned upon.


And yes, German TV is crap. We get this one free German channel, and we watch it with my friend because it's so hilarious because it's so bad. It doesn't even matter that we don't understand it. We understand enough Oh and there's one childrens program that is totally scary. It's like Sesame Street gone totally bad.