EU is becoming anti-christian in politics

[Kuciwalker]

Speculation, in this case, is a bad thing. It is not a good thing to be accustomed to positing things for which there is no evidence.

[Heresson]

What exactly do You mean?
Do You mean "posting" by "positing" or "claiming"?
What I ment was that the Bible (especially New Testament, Old Testament should not be taken seriously by Christians) or even Al-Qur'an, and even sunna, they don't give answers to all the questions.
You have to think about it, judge the true meaning, make analogies...

Oh, and Soviet communism and nazism were part of secular humanism thought.
They didn't prove well.

[Kuciwalker]

The Soviets and Nazis were definately not secular humanists.

[Heresson]

oh yeah?
You could doubt humanism of them,
but communism was uebersecular. At least in Christian countries.
And nasism, well, Hitler was kind of in favour of neo-paganism, but it was a rational choice by him, no doubt he didn't really believe in it.

[chequita guevara]

The Soviets were secular humanists in ideology, if not in practice. So were the Chicoms. The Nazis may have been secular, but they certainly weren't humanists. It doesn't matter. The Western Christians have been content to allow a Holocaust every year in the 3rd world when they have been perfectly capable of preventing it. Every religion teaches that you are your brother's keeper, and they have failed the 3rd world utterly. As bad as Communist countries have been in practice, the religious world has been magnitudes worse. Having ethics means little if you don't act upon them.

[Heresson]

You are right about that having ethics means little if you don't act upon them. But Christian world does something, doesn't it. What about Kosovo... Bosnia even - was it successful or not - and other attempts?
Perhaps not all is being done what can be, but it's because of mental barriers (You should not interfere in some other country's buiseness - of course I disagree with that), and because sometimes there are not good sollutions, and local people are not willing to help at all.
Of course, it'd be nice if the West acted like a great policemen, but then there'd be claims of rasism (because it teaches Africa what to do), of religious bias (because it teaches Muslims...), of unilateralism and all this crap.
I can't imagine You think communist countries were more successfull and less bloody than religious ones.
I guess I won't be able to change your opinion in that matter, You're too deeply communism-religionist, so I'll spare myself proving that.

[Kropotkin]

But Christian world does something, doesn't it.

Like they did in Rwanda eh? To me, it seems like being a christian or not has little impact on your ability to do good.

[Heresson]

I don't think so. Such personalities as Mother Theresa from Calcutta and many others are effect of Christian teaching

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Originally posted by Heresson
The question is whether the humanity would have been better off without religion - and it wouldn't have been better, it'd have been worse.

Nope, it would've been a lot better. All religion does is train people to believe things dogmatically and to reject even empirical evidence that contradicts their faith. That it has sometimes used its power to help people doesn't change the fact that it is essentially brainwashing.

The world would've been much better if it had been run by secular humanists

Kuci, you absolutely ignore history and seem to have no knowledge of the origin our Western value system. Values such as equality of all, human rights and concern for the poor all are rooted in Christianity and the Catholic Church. Christianity is the very bedrock of modern liberalism.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
Kuci,

From what I see, he appears to be arguing the w/o religion, there would have been no secular humanists.

I don't buy it. Just clarifying...

-Arrian

Arrian, we will never know as humanists worked on a foundation created by Christians.

[Ned]

Che, you diatribe against "religion" by citing the Aztecs is way out of order where the discussion is of Christianity and the Catholic Church.

[Sava]

de_aztec

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ned
Kuci, you absolutely ignore history and seem to have no knowledge of the origin our Western value system. Values such as equality of all, human rights and concern for the poor all are rooted in Christianity and the Catholic Church. Christianity is the very bedrock of modern liberalism.

Which is of course why there were people who espoused such things in pagan Greece and Rome.

[Kuciwalker]

btw, the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius was a humanist. And that was before Constantine

[Ben Kenobi]

If conservative catholics wouldn't be able to hold office in the EU, there would be no EU.

Why?

I don't see conservative Catholics as a particularly dominent subgroup within the EU.

If they EU really welcomed conservative Catholics, why all this fuss about Buttiglione?