Convince me to vote for Kerry

[johncmcleod]

DeTocqueville is now an American?

Oops.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It renders a lot of your statement incorrect though . IIRC, France abolished slavery before 1830 and liberal Frenchmen were more tolerant of blacks.

[johncmcleod]

It renders a lot of your statement incorrect though . IIRC, France abolished slavery before 1830 and liberal Frenchmen were more tolerant of blacks.

Still, uncivilized, primitive people were viewed with disdain by the whites. Whites at that time weren't very critical of what other whites had done.

Anyway, De Tocqueville's interpretation isn't the standard one among modern historians.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pax
Ned,
That was a long statement about the Opium Wars. Let me make a shorter. The Chinese had no need of British imports. The only thing the British found that they could sell to the Chinese was Opium. After one of the Emperor's children died of an overdose, the Emperor made it illegal. The Emperor also sent a letter to the British crown informing them of the illegality of Opium in China. The British forced through China's markets open. What they sold to them was Opium. A drug that was deadly. Your encyclopedia also glosses over the cold hard truths. Once again, you are saying that a democratic country does not have to respect another countries sovereignty. Once again showing your true nature.

I agree that opium is a bad drug. But the crackdown was caused due to a huge trade imbalance as Chinese imports skyrocketed. The war was precipitated by the use of force by the Chinese per the article. They siezed British citizens as hostages, and then destroyed a fortune's worth of opium. While one might treat criminals with such disrespect, one does not treat a sovereign nation with such disrespect without risking war. War is what they got.

[Ned]

Originally posted by johncmcleod


Thanks. I liked it too.



First off, 1830 is way before the worst of it happened, and second, that is by a white author in 1830. At this time the natives were considered sub-human by the whites, who wanted to justify their actions. The account is just too subjective.

BTW, when my jazz band was at a festival last year, I was looking at all of the bands at the festival and I noticed that Aptos High School was there.

Re: History. I think you are quite wrong about when the "worst" happened. Most of the Indians lived East of the Mississippi when Europeans first arrived. In 1830, there were still Indian wars occurring on the Eastern side of the Mississippi. Abe Lincoln was in one of them.

Regardless, the account was written by a Frenchman who had nothing to defend. Also, the French (as did the Spanish) did not think the Indians as subhuman. They thought of them as people to be converted to Christianity and with whom they could intermarry. So I would suggest to you that the account is unbiased and accurate.

Yeah, Aptos High is an excellent school in music and in football. My daughter was in the band and went on to play the flute in the local orchestra and in the Carleton College orchestra as well.

[Ned]

Originally posted by MrFun



Do you know any history of United States?

Racism was and is, a national, chronic problem -- never exclusively that of the historic and contemporary South.

No doubt. But slavery was the province of the Old South. We went to war to free the slaves at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.

[Ned]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Anyway, De Tocqueville's interpretation isn't the standard one among modern historians.

True. But it is first hand and has no bias or hidden agenda.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Ned


Totalitarians calling the pro-liberty neocons this? That is a laugh.

Ned they are not pro-liberty, they may say it - infact its part of the ideology to say things like that but not mean it. So yes the true neo-con cause is anti-freedom fo the individual.
They want to make you fearfull citizens with eroded(the Patriot act is the beggining) freedoms - its what they all learnt from struass's philosophy on how to combat the precieved failiure of the liberal dream in the 60's+70's in america. See my sig and other articles where we discuss what the founders of the neo-con movement REALLY stand for. I'm afraid most good people like yourself have been tricked by them which was also part of their agenda for power

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Ned they are not pro-liberty, they may say it - infact its part of the ideology to say things like that but not mean it. So yes the true neo-con cause is anti-freedom fo the individual.
They want to make you fearfull citizens with eroded(the Patriot act is the beggining) freedoms - its what they all learnt from struass's philosophy on how to combat the precieved failiure of the liberal dream in the 60's+70's in america. See my sig and other articles where we discuss what the founders of the neo-con movement REALLY stand for. I'm afraid most good people like yourself have been tricked by them which was also part of their agenda for power

I am offended by people who suggest that conservatives are anti-freedom. "Neo-cons" as you call them may be anti-freedom but any true conservative is guided by his love of freedom.

Conservatives are the champions of freedom:
-Liberals talk about women's rights but it is Bush that actually brought freedom to Afghan women!
-we are the ones who defend the right to bear arms, a freedom that Liberals seek to deny.
-we defend the freedom of religion while Liberals seek to force "tolerance" on people by excluding prayer from school or the word "God" from the pledge.
- It's the Left that claims to believe in free elections but is ready to unleash lawyers to sue even when fraud did not exist (see DNC memo). It's the left that disenfranchises military absentee votes (florida 2000) and falsely accuses republicans of disenfranchising the black vote.

Conservatives believe in freedom! The only freedom that Liberals seem to believe in is the right to murder your unborn child. Hurray for freedom!

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by The diplomat


I am offended by people who suggest that conservatives are anti-freedom. "Neo-cons" as you call them may be anti-freedom but any true conservative is guided by his love of freedom.

Conservatives are the champions of freedom:
-Liberals talk about women's rights but it is Bush that actually brought freedom to Afghan women!
-we are the ones who defend the right to bear arms, a freedom that Liberals seek to deny.
-we defend the freedom of religion while Liberals seek to force "tolerance" on people by excluding prayer from school or the word "God" from the pledge.
- It's the Left that claims to believe in free elections but is ready to unleash lawyers to sue even when fraud did not exist (see DNC memo). It's the left that disenfranchises military absentee votes (florida 2000) and falsely accuses republicans of disenfranchising the black vote.

Conservatives believe in freedom! The only freedom that Liberals seem to believe in is the right to murder your unborn child. Hurray for freedom!

The diplomat - i'm completely with you. And all the stuff i've been finding out about recently has been aimed purely at the neo-conservitive movement in america over the last 50 odd years(starting with Strauss the philosopher) AND militant extremists in the muslim world.
Both groups have nothing in common with the democratic cause of either a Conservitive or a Liberal. That is what is so dangerous and insidious about both groups.
But unfortunately the neo-cons seem to have taken hold of the Republican party.
You should all know that a neo-con and a regular Consertive are not the same, but the neo-cons have pretended to be the same, to represent the same things.
They were taught to do this in Strauss's writtings and it is part of their agenda. Guys like Chennay, Rumsfeild,Wolfavitz have a hidden agenda that no real pro-freedom person should tolarate. You need to find out more info on them all - what thier real policies are and what they are planning for american society.
The stuff i've seen recently has scared me sh**less and given me the proof i need to see them for what they really are.

[Ned]

I think there are some conspiracy theorists posting in this thread.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Ned
I think there are some conspiracy theorists posting in this thread.

Prove me wrong. Set my mind at ease - i'm open for some counter claims that the things i've mentioned have nothing to do with the neo-cons

[Ned]

child, you may be right. Imran says he is neocon.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ned


No doubt. But slavery was the province of the Old South. We went to war to free the slaves at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.

In Illinois, blacks could be subjected to psuedo-slavery called "involuntary servitude" until the early 1840s.

Certainly not a state of the South.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Man, me and che agree on something (that neo-conservatism are pro-democracy and pro-freedom for the individual) and you people are still disagreeing? One tip, if me and che agree on ANYTHING, that means it's right .

And I never realized that Democrat Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan was anti-democracy and anti-freedom either .