Do Christians Fear Death?

[Japher]

I am afraid to die naked.

[Arrian]

You wouldn't be caught dead in your birthday suit?

-Arrian

[johncmcleod]

We spend so much time on the eternal fate of souls because Christ saw this as of primary importance. Christ's earthly mission centered upon this goal, even as he helped people here on Earth.

Is this Christ's teaching or the people who lived after him's teaching?

All we have here are shadows of the real thing. You are right that we should strive for true happiness which we will only find in Heaven and not on Earth.

I believe in a different sort of God. It is not the being that we see it is that we can talk to and pray to, it is simply an incomprehensible force that flows through all things. The point of life is to learn to connect with this force. This can be done through any religion, for all religions lead to the same place. But if you ask me, doing this will be achieved through spirituality and not through religion and institutions. It will be achieved by meditation and contemplation, not through going to church. All of the religions teach of meditation, the problem with Christianity is that it isn't of enough importance.

What good is it to temporarily alleviate suffering if it means condemning a soul to eternal suffering in Hell?

First off, I don't mean I'm going to go around not caring about morals. I am simply saying that I don't believe in worrying about it that much just as long as you don't hurt others. Second, what if you don't believe in hell? Jesus' references to hell are very few, very vague, and very misunderstood. Hell was used as a way to scare non-Christians into joining the religion, so they can be saved.

And I don't think God would create a hell. Eternal damnation is too harsh a punishment for any worldly deed. And anway, nothing is completely a person's fault. Even the worst murderers become that way because of conditions around them (abusive parents, etc.) or because there is something wrong with them. I don't see how eternal damnation would be justifiable, and how does it do any good? Damning someone is bad and won't create good. It would be immoral.

The other reason that I do not want to die is that I want to see Christ coming, and I want to see what will happen to this earth during the latest days.

The second coming of Christ will just be like the first. He will be some ordinary guy that goes against the Church and is misunderstood, and he will be killed by the conservative church members with the power.

Since we ruined the original paradise by chosing to be god ourselves the new paradise can only consist of people who want God to be god and humans to be humans.

I agree. We lived as hunter-gatherers within the ecological system, and then we tried sedentary farming. Instead of living within nature's system, we tried to control it and we believe we are meant to rule the world as God.

I'm also scared of taking my own life, even though I'm pretty suicidal. I have fears that if I do take my own life, it will be a sin and I will be punished. But having said that, I feel like I am being punished in life as well. Why else would I have such depression if not to punish me? Or maybe I'm a random occurance in the world and death is an infinitely long dreamless sleep. If that's the case, it won't matter if I take my own life.

You aren't being punished. If you're Christian, the Christian God does not divinely intervene to punish you. He lets you live your life on earth, and reward or punishment comes later. Even if you don't believe in the Christian God, God doesn't do this. Your depression is a result of living an unnatural lifestyle in an unnatural society. Depression didn't exist before civilization. Now millions of people are depressed and suicide is a problem. Humans weren't meant to live like this, and it is taking its toll.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Sava
I don't fear death... I fear the method that I'm going to die. I'd hate to be shot, or stabbed, or in a bad car accident.

I'm also scared of taking my own life, even though I'm pretty suicidal. I have fears that if I do take my own life, it will be a sin and I will be punished. But having said that, I feel like I am being punished in life as well. Why else would I have such depression if not to punish me? Or maybe I'm a random occurance in the world and death is an infinitely long dreamless sleep. If that's the case, it won't matter if I take my own life.

I always imagined being shot wouldn't be that bad of a way to go, provided you didn't bleed to death, but went quick.

[Pekka]

Japher, yeah.. or what if you were on the toilet seat, doing some heavy duty, and then you bursted a vain in your head and died right there? That would be pretty bad too.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Pekka
Japher, yeah.. or what if you were on the toilet seat, doing some heavy duty, and then you bursted a vain in your head and died right there? That would be pretty bad too.

Not to mention the thousands who would impersonate you.

[Pekka]

very true.. you'd get yourself on some website funnydeaths.com or something. That wouldn't be so cool anymore.

[Dis]

christians fear death no more than athiests fear life

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm also scared of taking my own life, even though I'm pretty suicidal. I have fears that if I do take my own life, it will be a sin and I will be punished. But having said that, I feel like I am being punished in life as well. Why else would I have such depression if not to punish me?

Why is there any suffering at all in this world?

I mean, look at Christ. He was perfect, and yet he suffered more than anyone else. If God only punished people through suffering, then why would he punish Christ?

Suffering can lead to good, to purification. Hebrews talks about being made pure through suffering, and that we will all be tested in this world.

I don't know what is causing your depression, Sava, and what is troubling you so much at this point in time. All I can tell you is that if you fight it out, this will pass.

Don't give up, and please, feel free to send me a PM if you need someone to vent.

[Ben Kenobi]

Is this Christ's teaching or the people who lived after him's teaching?

Christ taught the Parable of the Ten virgins, and told us how we do not know the hour or the day of his return.

I believe in a different sort of God. It is not the being that we see it is that we can talk to and pray to, it is simply an incomprehensible force that flows through all things.

So why does contemplation and meditation matter if this force is not something you can talk to and pray to?

But if you ask me, doing this will be achieved through spirituality and not through religion and institutions. It will be achieved by meditation and contemplation, not through going to church. All of the religions teach of meditation, the problem with Christianity is that it isn't of enough importance.

Yet Christ gave the Apostles a mission to establish his church. If you believe in Christ, then clearly the church must play an integral part of his mission here on Earth.

If all we need are ourselves, then why would Christ set up a church after him?

Secondly, I have a friend of mine who is a novice nun entering a contemplative prayer. Perhaps the problem is not with Christianity, but with your pastor, in that he lacks the proper understanding and desire for meditation, and so does not convey of it's importance.

For me, it only makes sense that because God is a person, that we should pray to him. An impersonal force needs no prayer, and prayer could not help you.

Finally, Christ claimed to be God. If this 'god' is an impersonal force, then Christ is not God.

I am simply saying that I don't believe in worrying about it that much just as long as you don't hurt others.

So all we should do, is to do not do to others, as we would not have done to us?

I think we have a much more difficult task to help others, and not just to avoid hurting them.

Second, what if you don't believe in hell? Jesus' references to hell are very few, very vague, and very misunderstood.

Why do you say this? I think Christ is very clear about Hell being a place of eternal separation from God.

Hell was used as a way to scare non-Christians into joining the religion, so they can be saved.

What if it is real? How can you have a heaven without a hell. If there is no hell, how can there be a heaven?

And I don't think God would create a hell. Eternal damnation is too harsh a punishment for any worldly deed.

Why do you say this? Do you believe someone who delights in the pain of others, ought to be rewarded in heaven?

And anway, nothing is completely a person's fault. Even the worst murderers become that way because of conditions around them (abusive parents, etc.) or because there is something wrong with them.

If we are not responsible for the evil we do, then how can we be responsible for the good? Could not one attribute our kind actions as merely part of our upbringing?

If we are allowed to choose heaven, and to choose good deeds, then we are also allowed to choose hell, and to choose evil.

I don't see how eternal damnation would be justifiable, and how does it do any good? Damning someone is bad and won't create good. It would be immoral.

Why send someone to jail for a crime that he committed? Jailing someone is bad, and will not create good.

Justice is part of the good, and a just God, will punish the wicked, just as we punish criminals here on Earth.

[CygnusZ]

Justice is part of the good, and a just God, will punish the wicked, just as we punish criminals here on Earth.

Sounds like you have a pretty messed up conception of Good, Evil and Justice. When is it ever just to hurt someone knowing that it will not better the world? Under what sort of conditions is this good? If someone kills my son, why should I go out of my way to pursue punishment? Spite? Vengance? You're idea of "Justice" is the culmination of everything bad about mankind. That kind of justice is pure Evil. How convienent to speak of love one second, and then the indulgence of your sadistic pleasures in another under the blanket of "Justice".

Justice is giving to each what they deserve. Nobody, no matter how horrible they are, deserves to have pain and suffering needlessly inflicted upon them. Nobody, no matter how terrible their crimes, if they can be helped deserves to be denied that help. We imprison people because they pose a danger to others. We imprison people in hopes of rehabilitating them. But, we should never imprison someone just for pure vengance.

A truly good, all-powerful and all-knowing God would NEVER damn ANYBODY to hell.

[johncmcleod]

Christ taught the Parable of the Ten virgins, and told us how we do not know the hour or the day of his return.

...

Yet Christ gave the Apostles a mission to establish his church. If you believe in Christ, then clearly the church must play an integral part of his mission here on Earth.

If all we need are ourselves, then why would Christ set up a church after him?

The creation of the church and the writing of the gospels took place after Jesus' death and was done by his followers. Throughout the gospels his disciples are always screwing things up and get the message wrong. I wouldn't trust these guys to deliver the teachings of Jesus perfectly, that is why I look at the overall message of Jesus rather than go into specifics. So, when hell is hardly mentioned, I don't think to much about it. Secondly, I see Christ as a reformer he learned how to connect with the Oversoul. I think his teachings are very valuable. But I don't worship him as God and try to talk to him. After all, he isn't there, and it is hard to talk to someone that isn't there.

So why does contemplation and meditation matter if this force is not something you can talk to and pray to?

I do not see why it is absolutely necessary to talk and pray to it. If that works for you, than go for it. I just think that there are many different ways to connect with this energy, and I think the best way for me is through meditation and contemplation.

Secondly, I have a friend of mine who is a novice nun entering a contemplative prayer. Perhaps the problem is not with Christianity, but with your pastor, in that he lacks the proper understanding and desire for meditation, and so does not convey of it's importance.

I do not mean that in itself Christianity has a problem of not being spiritual. If you look for it you can find lots of Christian teachings dealing with meditation and contemplation, especially from St. Ignatius. Just in every interpretation of Christianity I have seen (including all of the religious schooling I've gotten) the most important parts of the religion are: getting into heaven by following the moral teachings, and prayer. Meditation is encouraged but it doesn't seem to be a central part of mainstream Christianity. I don't this means that Christianity is bad or Jesus is bad, I just think that the influences on the Church (western thought, its evangelical nature, the influences on the old religion of converts, etc.) have made it put more emphasis on different parts of religion, and I just happen to prefer the Eastern ones a little bit more. But this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Christianity.

For me, it only makes sense that because God is a person, that we should pray to him. An impersonal force needs no prayer, and prayer could not help you.

Finally, Christ claimed to be God. If this 'god' is an impersonal force, then Christ is not God.

Why is God a person? The problem I have with this belief is that it is not something that God is or should/would be but it is a cultural belief that has seeped into religion. For 3 million years, humans came along and lived within the ecological system just like any other organism. But then, several thousand years ago, we figured out how to become sedentary, agricultural, civilized societies. The key distinction between the two different ways are that the tribal hunter-gatherers lived within the ecosystem, and the civilized people controlled it. This separated the civilized people from other organisms, so it lead us to believe that we are superior to all organisms and that we are God and have the right to control the planet's ecosystem. So in our religions, because they are man made, believe that God must be a person. If a religion was truly divinely inspired, in the manner that Judaism and Christianity claim to be, God would not tell the people that they were created in his image and that he is a person. He would probably also tell the people to change their lifestyle. So yes, I don't believe Christ is God. I just see him as a brilliant thinker, a reformer, and someone who learned how to connect with the Oversoul.

So all we should do, is to do not do to others, as we would not have done to us?

I think we have a much more difficult task to help others, and not just to avoid hurting them.

True, not only must we not hurt others, it is good to help them. Service leads to happiness and it is the second level of happiness (above pleasure and below true happiness, the latter comprising of being, knowledge, and joy).

Why do you say this? I think Christ is very clear about Hell being a place of eternal separation from God.

The earliest Gospel, Mark, makes one reference to hell, and what they were talking about was Gehenna, a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where sacrifices were taking place. I wouldn't say it is conclusive that hell exists.

What if it is real? How can you have a heaven without a hell. If there is no hell, how can there be a heaven?

Another good point. The idea of nothing existing in itself and only existing relative to other things is a common philosophy in both east and west. But the thing is, I'm not sure if there is heaven. My guess is that when we die, our souls just become part of the great Oversoul. In other words, the energy is recycled and will end existing in other things. I just don't know what happens to one's consciousness when they die.

Cygnus put what I was trying to say better than I did. Damnation doesn't help. Ben used the prison analogy. But I don't believe in throwing people in prison just for the sake of punishment. Punishment does not make anything better. Prison exists not for punishment but for deterrence and rehabilitation. If there is a hell, it would be temporary and for the purpose of rehabilitation.

[Ben Kenobi]

Whoa.

I'm off to a party tonight.

I'll reply to these tomorrow.

[monolith94]

Compared to life in the 1600s, life now is pretty good. Maybe heaven is earth, and reincarnation is the vehicle.

Tabula rasa. Hmmm.

I'm not sure I like the idea of completely forgetting my life. I don't like it all. But, it might happen. Oi!

Several things could happen after death from my perspective:

nothing/blankness/absence/void
this might be peaceful, and in fact graceful

reincarnation
we lose the memory of our previous life and advance onto a new one. do we repeat the same mistakes? hopefully not.

heaven without memory of former life or
heaven with memory of former life.

I can't figure out which heaven is preferable. it seems the latter forms the majority of how our culture thinks about heaven, but the former is more biblical, and more scary. But it might also be the best way - a fresh start.

Sort of like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. Two people enter a world where they can't remember anything, but they're ultimately determined to make the best of what they have together. I guess that's my sort of romantic take on heaven.

[johncmcleod]

Sort of like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. Two people enter a world where they can't remember anything, but they're ultimately determined to make the best of what they have together. I guess that's my sort of romantic take on heaven.

That's so weird that you bring that up. I just finished that movie about 2 minutes ago.

I think that the idea of the soul leaving the body to become part of the Oversoul and being recycled would explain Carl Jung's collective conscience theory. Maybe we die and our soul and all of our ideas just become part of the universe.

I'm off to a party tonight.

[Napoleon Dynamite voice]

Lucky!!!

[/Napoleon Dynamit voice]