Summary of studies: Religiousity and intelligence

[Ben Kenobi]

Or maybe it is just that they are somewhat alienated from society because many people view them as second-class citizens or otherwise look down upon them.

Depends on whether you consider the majority to have this faith.

I don't think this is true. I think the majority are doubters and skeptics more inclined to rail and denigrate the faithful.

Consider that I am not trying to say that the irreligious are less intelligent than the religious, whereas you are trying to prove that the irreligious are more intelligent than the religious.

So don't give me that persecution jazz. I'm not the one trying to persecute you.

[Al B. Sure!]

Or maybe it is just that they are somewhat alienated from society because many people view them as second-class citizens or otherwise look down upon them.

who are? religious people? i wouldn't say religious people are truly alienated because of their beliefs, at least not in most of america. In Europe or some parts of America socialism is so strong i'm sure they look down upon religious people (the french ban on practicing religions, for example) but socialism/liberalism still does pride itself on some level of equality and liberty so while sometimes they do go so extreme as to be almost persecuting religious people, on the whole socialists are probably respectful, stuff like what's happening in france aside.

anyway that don't make sense... if theyare persecuted, wouldn't they be unhappy?

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes, but my assessment of IQ tests, is not based on my own findings, but on what others have shown me.

IQ can be used to determine what a society values as intelligent. It cannot establish any meaningful 'intrinsic' intelligence.

They actually aren't so bad. Intelligence is almost always used to mean the capcity to aquire and apply knowledge. Sometimes it also means reasoning ability (and you can't reason well if you are incapable or limited in your ability to be skeptical). I.Q. tests aren't perfect at measuring this, but they do a decent job.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Which is my point. These tests are moderated by a third factor afflicting the results. Which is why they show a discreprency between theists and atheists.
...
I would think, that since religiousity does not affect intrinsic intelligence, that any difference can only be attributed to bias in the test.

You are still getting it backwards. It would NOT be that being an atheist *causes* you to be intelligent. If anything, it would be that greater intelligence makes it more likely that you are an atheist. Do you see the difference in causality?

There might also be a third factor which tends to improve one's intelligence and make one an unbeliever.

I would again note that none of this means you can't be both intelligent and a theist.

As for the validity of these studies, this sort of thing is often found to be the case. The better a scientist you are, for instance, the more likely you are to not believe. You might not like that, but it is a well-established fact.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why is this? Why is skepticism considered 'intelligent?' Sure, I agree with you that most skeptics are agnostic and atheist. However, just because they are skeptical, does not make them more intelligent than the theists.

Being able to question information is an essential part of intelligently processing it.

And dangit, would you please try to bear in mind the causality. You are inflating this into a much larger thing than it actually is. Because you are taking this as some personal insult, you are having trouble seeing what is going on.

It doesn't mean a theist can't be as smart as an atheist. It doesn't mean all atheists are smarter than theists. It doesn't mean all atheists are smart. All it means is that if you look at everyone, measure their intelligence and faith, then the concentration of atheists is higher towards the higher end of the intelligence bracket as opposed to the lower. It doesn't conclude why that is the case, it merely states that it is.

Now, what I think is going on is that more intelligent people tend to find it easier to not believe than less intelligent people. Probably because the more intelligent you are the more you *tend* to question the facts everyone else accepts.

Again, this doesn't mean a theist is less intelligent than an atheist.

IQ tests are quite malleable, depending on the questions they ask.

Actually people that tend to do well on one intelligence test, tend to do well on other ones. There is something there that it is measuring, and it is reasonably close to intelligence.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Depends on whether you consider the majority to have this faith.

I don't think this is true. I think the majority are doubters and skeptics more inclined to rail and denigrate the faithful.

Consider that I am not trying to say that the irreligious are less intelligent than the religious, whereas you are trying to prove that the irreligious are more intelligent than the religious.

So don't give me that persecution jazz. I'm not the one trying to persecute you.

Read my latest post before this. I am not saying the irreligious are more intelligent. You are misreading the statistics.

And as an atheist, I know personally what it is like to grow up in a society so filled with religion. It *is* alienating, and most people simply do not comprehend how someone can be an atheist. This means atheists have smaller support networks a fair bit of the time, especially when dealing with troubles of feeling alienating.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
who are? religious people?

No.

-Drachasor

[Al B. Sure!]

And as an atheist, I know personally what it is like to grow up in a society so filled with religion. It *is* alienating, and most people simply do not comprehend how someone can be an atheist. This means atheists have smaller support networks a fair bit of the time, especially when dealing with troubles of feeling alienating.

yeah right. stop whining

and i've missed about from page 3 to page 5 so did anyone address the fact that the Bell Curve could be analogous to this?

[Al B. Sure!]

drachasor:

i think the fact that i didn't even think you meant athiest were alienated says a lot. i assumed you meant religious people.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
How does this disprove God?

And you are wrong about Ockham's razor. It simply states that the simpler theory is more likely to be correct.

And tossing god into any theory of the universe makes that theory needlessly complex. There is no need for such a concept in any explanatory theory.

For the record, I am an agnostic atheist. I am borderline hard-athiest because I believe it is in fact impossible to prove god exists.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
and i've missed about from page 3 to page 5 so did anyone address the fact that the Bell Curve could be analogous to this?

Just like the Bell Curve, people are misreading statistics. I guess you haven't been paying attention to the last page (or you don't know about how the Bell Curve was wrong).

-Drachasor

[Ben Kenobi]

You are still getting it backwards. It would NOT be that being an atheist *causes* you to be intelligent. If anything, it would be that greater intelligence makes it more likely that you are an atheist. Do you see the difference in causality?

Yes I do. Now you are saying that greater intelligence makes you more likely to be an atheist. How is that different than what I say, which is that you believe atheists to be more intelligent than theists, not because of their atheism, but because of their natural talents?

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
yeah right. stop whining

You confuse whining and explanations too readily.

-Drachasor

[Ben Kenobi]

This means atheists have smaller support networks a fair bit of the time

I can comprehend an atheist, and I can understand why your support networks are smaller.

Atheists have no motivation to form support networks, while Christians have many motivations in their teachings for doing so.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes I do. Now you are saying that greater intelligence makes you more likely to be an atheist. How is that different than what I say, which is that you believe atheists to be more intelligent than theists, not because of their atheism, but because of their natural talents?

Because there is no reason why a theist can't be just as smart as an atheist.

Remember, this is about reconsidering accepted explanations. If atheism was the belief of the vast majority, then most people would be athiests, and you could well find more theists in the higher end of the intelligence bracket.

It doesn't have anything to do with with one group being proved smarter than the other.

-Drachasor

[Al B. Sure!]

where do you live Drachasor?

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I can comprehend an atheist, and I can understand why your support networks are smaller.

Atheists have no motivation to form support networks, while Christians have many motivations in their teachings for doing so.

Thank you for that extraordinarily biased and baseless statement.

Atheists have smaller support networks because there are far fewer atheists in the general population and their beliefs are not well-respected/received by most.

The environment is alienating, as you demonstrated by your lack of understanding atheism (and general human nature to form support networks).

To be clear when I say "support network" I mean the family, friends, teachers, etc that someone can go to for emotional support in times of stress.

-Drachasor