Summary of studies: Religiousity and intelligence

[Flip McWho]

But clearly if you don't believe in religion then you don't believe in god. (Religion in the general sense, not the institutions). Afterall, believing in god is a religious belief (there are just other religious beliefs too).

Not true. You can believe in God without having any religious beliefs as such. Believing in God is just a belief, religious beliefs start when you start believing in religions. (i.e Catholicism, Islam etc)

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Drachasor
Agnosticism means you admit one can't know for certain one way or another, but always implies a lack of theism. In other words, they don't believe in god, but they admit they might be wrong. Agnostics are atheists.

That's stunning logic. You leap from there is no way of knowing to they know with not a single leg to carry you there.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Drachasor


An atheist doesn't believe in god.

If you are uncertain as to wether god exists, then you do not *believe* that he does. Hence you are an atheist; without active belief in god's existence you cannot be a theist. Atheist is the more general term, agnostics are a particular type of atheist.

All people are either atheists or theists; you either have a belief in god's existence or you do not.

So yes, specifically I am an agnostic, but I shy away from using that term on myself because it is prone to being misunderstood. The term "atheist" typically conveys my position better than "agnostic" to the average person.

-Drachasor

You're full of your own word games. Keep them for yourself please. They don't fit the rest of us.

An atheist believes there is no God. If that is what you believe, then camp there. Don't try to highjack the language to tell the rest of us what we believe or do not.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by notyoueither
That's stunning logic. You leap from there is no way of knowing to they know with not a single leg to carry you there.

No, you misunderstand. They have no belief in god:

be·lief Audio pronunciation of "belief" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lf)
n.

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

An agnostic does not believe in god. Therefore they are an atheist. "Atheist" is a very generic term:

a·the·ist Audio pronunciation of "atheist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.

...One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

and:

dis·be·lief Audio pronunciation of "disbelief" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dsb-lf)
n.

...Refusal or reluctance to believe.

plus:

ag·nos·tic Audio pronunciation of "agnostic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

...1.
.........1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
.........2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
...2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Unless you are the very rare type of agnostic that believes in god (and in practice I almost never see the word used in this way--though perhaps that is because almost know one is an agnostic believer), then you are an agnostic that doesn't have a belief in god. You are not a "hard athiest" (you don't deny the existence of god--"true" atheist in the above), but you do have disbelief. That's an atheist.

This is predicated on that fact that people either believe in something, or they do not. You can be uncertain as to the correctness of that belief or disbelief, but you still either have it or don't. Now, perhaps I wasn't wholly accurate when I said all agnostics are atheists, but the fact is that most everyone that refers to themselves as agnostics are atheists.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Not true. You can believe in God without having any religious beliefs as such. Believing in God is just a belief, religious beliefs start when you start believing in religions. (i.e Catholicism, Islam etc)

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

...1.
......1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
......2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
...2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
...3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
...4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Hmm, point, I suppose if you believe in, but lack reverence for, god, then you don't have any religious beliefs.

-Drachasor

[Flip McWho]

Yeah I've always counted that your've got to worship God in some way for religion to blossom. If you don't then all your do is believe.

Go smoke some pot Sava

Nothing wrong with pot.

It helps you fly.

[Flip McWho]

Unless you are the very rare type of agnostic that believes in god (and in practice I almost never see the word used in this way--though perhaps that is because almost know one is an agnostic believer), then you are an agnostic that doesn't have a belief in god. You are not a "hard athiest" (you don't deny the existence of god--"true" atheist in the above), but you do have disbelief. That's an atheist.

Refer to that link I posted for an theist agnostic. An atheist commonly denies the existence of God. An agnostic commonly states that you can't prove and not prove the existence of God. There is no automatic denial in there. You seem to leap from the fact that they don't openly believe in a God as a sort of denial.

EDIT: Also as an aside. Sometimes a dictionary isn't the best thing to define something. Hell I remember being told in a philosophy paper that if we use a dictionary to define a term they'll shoot us out of a cannon and into a ship full of dog****.

EDIT (again): For better clarity, maybe. I think I should go to bed.

[Drachasor]

With specialized terms, then yes, the dictionary isn't best.

With a more common term like "atheist" it is better.

As you noted I am not saying an agnostic denies that god exists, so don't to to foist that statement upon me.

In my experience (and I was one of the primary operaters of an atheism irc chatroom for many years)*, the term "atheist" is used both to describe those that disbelieve and those that deny.

-Drachasor

*among many other things

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
i'm surprised no one mentioned this (though i did stop reading on the third page) but Bell Curve, anyone? Them ******s were proved to be stupider! now we proved religious people are stupid! YAY!

to Chegitz. nice job consistantly fulfilling my expectations

Yeah, I hate this crap when people try to prove that the're smarter than other people, or look for studies to prove it. It's total bull**** man.

[Last Conformist]

And agnostiscism, technically speaking, is a type of atheist.

An atheist is someone that isn't a theist. Agnostics aren't theists. Typically the term "agnostic" is used by people to try to soften the blow of them being atheists (not always the case, but often).

This is semanticist bull****. The normal definition of an atheist is some who believes there is no god - this does not include agnostics. Etymology is not definition. It's hard to avoid the conclusion you're intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And I know the formula for the roots of a fourth-order polynomial is too complicated for anything but a computer.

That's just pragmatics - working out fourth-order polynomial equations via the analytic formula on paper is so time consuming you're usually better off using special methods suggested by the particular form of the equation*, guessing roots or using numerical methods, while a computer, excelling precisely at crunching numbers swiftly can do it with economical speed. Fourth order polynomial certainly can be analytically solved by hand, and have been done so - so, indeed, was the analytic solution found.

* Only an idiot or a computer would have any more trouble solving x^4+Ax^2+B=0 than a second-order equation.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

And agnostiscism, technically speaking, is a type of atheist.

An atheist is someone that isn't a theist. Agnostics aren't theists. Typically the term "agnostic" is used by people to try to soften the blow of them being atheists (not always the case, but often).

This is semanticist bull****. The normal definition of an atheist is some who believes there is no god - this does not include agnostics. Etymology is not definition. It's hard to avoid the conclusion you're intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

I know etymology isn't a definition, that's why I used the dictionary.

The normal definition for an atheist is someone that disbelieves or doubts the existence of god. That includes almost everyone (in my experience) that identifies themselves as agnostic. Perhaps there are many more people that are agnostics that do believe in god, but they must identify themselves as something else first and foremost (because I have only very rarely met one, relative to the agnostics). Few are the people that believe in god and say there is no proof he exists.

I am sorry there is a large overlap of the term "agnostic" and "atheist", but that's just how it is. Everyone is either a theist or an atheist; it might comply with etymology, true, but it also complies with the dictionary definition. One either believes in god, or one does not.

You don't like how the word "atheist" is defined in the dictionary, well, that's just how it is. Dictionaries are *based* on common usage. While some agnostics that don't believe in god greatly dislike being associated with the term "atheist", that is simply the term they applied with. If you ask the average person off the street: "what's the word for someone that doesn't believe in god?", they'll say "atheist." That's how the dictionary gets its definitions (very roughly speaking, of course).

I have already admitted I overstated the case when I said all agnostics are atheists. However, as I have said above and before, most people that call themselves "agnostic" are indeed atheists. The agnostic theists are very rare.

I think you need to stop confining "atheism" to a word that means someone that denies the existence of god. It is much broader than that.

-Drachasor

[Last Conformist]

I'll admit I don't know what the average American on the street's usage is; you might be right on that point. But the usage atheist="someone who believes that god does not exist" is what everyone around me uses, and by far the most common one in online debates including Americans that I have participitated in.

The AHD defines "atheist" as "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods", BTW. The implication is that someone who does not a fixed opinion whether God exists or not - an agnostic - is not an atheist. This puts some doubt on your claims for common usage.

Moreover, someone who believes that God exists but say they can't prove his existence would not be called an agnostic where I come from; few if any of the Christians I know offline would claim they can prove God's existence.

[Elok]

Hmm, we're told that the majority of scientists are atheists, and by stunning coincidence, a study conducted by scientists reports that atheists are intellectually superior. What are the odds of that? Wowwwww.....

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
that is because computers are dumber than people

really high level theorists use their mind, just use computers for simple but tedious calculations

Jon Miller

They're already better than people at algebra and most calculus.