Apolyton Hall of Fame: September 2004

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Let it be noted on the record that I am a predominantly OT posters, and I am worthy of nothing more than contempt and pity. My presence on that list is, frankly, baffling and I think it might have been the Poly community's first sympathy ****.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Let it be noted on the record that I am a predominantly OT posters, and I am worthy of nothing more than contempt and pity. My presence on that list is, frankly, baffling and I think it might have been the Poly community's first sympathy ****.

Hmmm... maybe I was mistaken, maybe everybody on the list doesn't deserve it

But seriously... your post is typical of why people think you are valuable member of the community. Better your attitude then somebody whining that their buddies aren't in, and how unfair it all is...

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Solver
. Just keep voting rights to on-topicers only .

Or vote by (on-topic) postcount...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Drogue

Or vote by (on-topic) postcount...

Gee... I wouldn't mind casting 21769 votes for some deserving person

I think that some people are forgetting that many of the people that some are considering Off Topic posters are really the first/original on topic posters. They don't really play some of the old games that brought them here anymore, so they hang in the OTF with the community of friends that they have grown to know.

There really aren't that many Off Topic Posters who truely never posted on topic... but I guess if you haven't been around since the beginning, you might not know that

[Jon Shafer]

Just let people vote.

It's already biased for people who were here longer compared with the new people who are more numerous.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ming


Gee... I wouldn't mind casting 21769 votes for some deserving person

Thank You, Ming.

I'm blushing

[Ming]

I was thinking of one of the deserving Civ II MP people

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ming
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

The anti off topic, elitist snobs of the on topic forums continue to whine like stuck pigs...

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Aren't you as a mod supposed to prevent people from flaming each other? Please, everyone is entitled to their opinion, a little more respect...

EVERYBODY that is on the list is deserving, BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY VOTED THEM THERE.

It will always be a matter of OPINION on who belongs in.
Just because the current people don't match your personal view of "who is worthy" doesn't make them any less so.

Yes, it's a matter of opinion, that's what I spent the first two paragraphs explaining. I have no problem with OTers being in the HoF, in fact, I'm all for it. However, it's the Apolyton Hall of Fame, it would be nice if it actually represented Apolyton, not just the OT or just the Civ3 community or just any other subsection of the site. DarkCloud intends for his HoF to include all sections of the site and I'm merely offering suggestions on how to accomplish that, as this IMHO is not currently the case. I am just as free to be of that opinion as you are to disagree with it.

Yes, all the people who are in the HoF are worthy of being in there, that is not and has never been my concern. My concern is: are all the people who are *aren't* in there, and who are never going to be, not worthy?

If your little club of "special people" aren't in... it's your fault for not promoting them and lining up votes. And if you can't, they maybe they just aren't worth if you can't get people to vote for them.

I'm promoting for a fair chance for anyone to get in the HoF. OTers, Civ3ers, SMACers, Alt Civers, CtPers, anyone. Yes, I'm a CtPer myself so that might imply a certain prejudice, but it's not a coincidence that most of the examples in my previous posts are *not* CtPers. I want SMACers and Alt Civers and Civ2 scanerio makers of old to get in as well. But if I feel there's anything 'special' about SMACers or Civ2ers it's that they have a particularly bad taste, as I personally feel those game s*ck dick. However, I still realize that those games were important to Apolyton and a lot of our visitors, so if the aim of the HoF is to represent the entire site, I feel there should be Civ2ers and SMACers in there as well. Especially the scenario makers of old, like Harlan, Stefan Härtel, Allard HS, Captain Nemo and all those other great guys. I don't know any of them as I wasn't around at the time (except for Harlan, as he did some work for CtP as well), but I do know that this site (and its predecessors) thrived on their work in the early years.

And no amount of promoting is ever going to get an OTer or Civ3er to vote for a SMACer he's never even heard of because (s)he never played that particular game. So to claim that sufficient promotion could get anyone elected is IMO silly. However, that doesn't mean that that particular SMACer never made any contributions to this site, and that's what this HoF is in theory supposed to be about (even if it's not really working that way -- the whole point of my posts is to try to change that, if only a little bit).

If you really are disturbed, start your own HOF... that's all DC did.

That doesn't fly and you know it. If anyone else where to start 15-20 threads about a HoF all over the forums it would get shut down faster than you can say copy-cat. In fact, you would probably be the one shutting it down...

Hell, the owners even asked him to change the name since they already have an Apolyton Hall of Fame...

If this HoF were so unofficial, they wouldn't have bothered to ask this. Also, a new directive as recently given to the news editors that this HoF should be covered in news items (and if I'm not very much mistaken one or two news items have been posted about it in the past). Plus, it's being organised by an official Apolyton Staff member. All-in-all I'd say it's at the very least semi-official. But even if it it's as unofficial as it could be, there's nothing wrong with posting suggestions for improvement, is there?

But you're right: it's DC's thread. In the end all decisions are made by him. Anyone is free to offer their opinion, so why start flaming if they do? DC is free to ignore any and all suggestions if he disagrees with them (though he has said multiple times in the past that he welcomes the feedback).

[Ming]

Originally posted by Locutus
Aren't you as a mod supposed to prevent people from flaming each other? Please, everyone is entitled to their opinion, a little more respect...

You were the one saying that the Off Topic people don't "deserve" induction... and I was just stating a fact.
Who is the one flaming '_

Yes, it's a matter of opinion, that's what I spent the first two paragraphs explaining. I have no problem with OTers being in the HoF, in fact, I'm all for it. However, it's the Apolyton Hall of Fame, it would be nice if it actually represented Apolyton, not just the OT or just the Civ3 community or just any other subsection of the site. DarkCloud intends for his HoF to include all sections of the site and I'm merely offering suggestions on how to accomplish that, as this IMHO is not currently the case. I am just as free to be of that opinion as you are to disagree with it.

The current system allows that already... you are mistaken in your opinion. If somebody is deserving, they can get a "block" support them. If not, maybe they don't really deserve it if only a few friends think so

Yes, all the people who are in the HoF are worthy of being in there, that is not and has never been my concern. My concern is: are all the people who are *aren't* in there, and who are never going to be, not worthy?

They probably aren't worthy... based on the voting system. I can think of tons of people who have a chance and should be in... and I'm supporting those people and will get them in eventually... what's your problem

I'm promoting for a fair chance for anyone to get in the HoF. OTers, Civ3ers, SMACers, Alt Civers, CtPers, anyone. Yes, I'm a CtPer myself so that might imply a certain prejudice, but it's not a coincidence that most of the examples in my previous posts are *not* CtPers. I want SMACers and Alt Civers and Civ2 scanerio makers of old to get in as well. But if I feel there's anything 'special' about SMACers or Civ2ers it's that they have a particularly bad taste, as I personally feel those game s*ck dick. However, I still realize that those games were important to Apolyton and a lot of our visitors, so if the aim of the HoF is to represent the entire site, I feel there should be Civ2ers and SMACers in there as well. Especially the scenario makers of old, like Harlan, Stefan Härtel, Allard HS, Captain Nemo and all those other great guys. I don't know any of them as I wasn't around at the time (except for Harlan, as he did some work for CtP as well), but I do know that this site (and its predecessors) thrived on their work in the early years.

Your Opinion... obviously not shared by enough people.

And no amount of promoting is ever going to get an OTer or Civ3er to vote for a SMACer he's never even heard of because (s)he never played that particular game. So to claim that sufficient promotion could get anyone elected is IMO silly. However, that doesn't mean that that particular SMACer never made any contributions to this site, and that's what this HoF is in theory supposed to be about (even if it's not really working that way -- the whole point of my posts is to try to change that, if only a little bit).

Yeah... let's change it so a few people can get their friends in

That's not really the concept. The concept is that if a BUNCH of people think somebody is worth it, they can get in... and that's how it works, and it's working fine.

That doesn't fly and you know it. If anyone else where to start 15-20 threads about a HoF all over the forums it would get shut down faster than you can say copy-cat. In fact, you would probably be the one shutting it down...

If all you want is a little club, nobody will close down a thread aimed at a "SMALL" group that wants to recogonize their own. And as you state, there is no reason to start a million threads, because nobody will care about your little club.

If this HoF were so unofficial, they wouldn't have bothered to ask this. Also, a new directive as recently given to the news editors that this HoF should be covered in news items (and if I'm not very much mistaken one or two news items have been posted about it in the past). Plus, it's being organised by an official Apolyton Staff member. All-in-all I'd say it's at the very least semi-official. But even if it it's as unofficial as it could be, there's nothing wrong with posting suggestions for improvement, is there?

Again... it's so "official" that the owners want the name changed so that it doesn't conflict with their own HOF...

But you're right: it's DC's thread. In the end all decisions are made by him. Anyone is free to offer their opinion, so why start flaming if they do? DC is free to ignore any and all suggestions if he disagrees with them (though he has said multiple times in the past that he welcomes the feedback).

You are the one that started the ill will. Your opinion is that OTF'ers don't deserve the title, but your personal friends that are in small groups do. Live and let live...
The HOF is based on the ENTIRE site determining who belongs... it's a bummer that your select friends aren't in... but that's your fault. Do the job and they will be in... just like I promote Civ II people. They get in eventually... a long term strategy.

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Are you two guys going to ban each other

[Nubclear]

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Are you two guys going to ban each other

[Snowflake]

Well, I feel one thing Locutus said is right. SMACers have a relatively small community. Some of the people really deserving would not be recognized by other people who don't play the game and would be hard to get in the hall.

[Grandpa Troll]

OK

I have two theories and they probably fit both Ming and Locutus's views

LOCUTUS: We do have a smaller group when counted "ON TOPIC" as individual units, i.e. CTP (I am a die hard supporter and promoter of) CTP2,SMAC and other so we would probably have an overall smaller voting base than the very popular (and over populated OT) It will probably be harder to get as many votes in Utumwa Iowa versus New York City, to do an equation comparison


MING: Off Topic generates a lot of debateable issues that i enjoy some I dont and some are downright rude. BUT, as once Ming himself told me politely, I dun have to come to OT

Ok I agree that people shouldnt whine if they dont get elected. I dont think Locutus is whinning I think merely stating a point.
I do think this is fun and well I would like one day to be recognized for promoting either CTP or CIVIII which i am getting into now. I dont see that we need to fight or squabble but rather champion the efforts made by those whom do make it.

Ok

I have intended to offer each and everyone of us here the opportunity to AGREE TO DISAGREE

I love Apolyton and hope all others do as well

Why if I were single and met Apolytonia and we got married..why..she makes me so darned happy..ya know what I would do..I would turn to the Ted Stryker Marriage Manual, page One through page 458 ...and I quote.."wheras each and every action deserves an equal or more superior reaction"

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ming
You were the one saying that the Off Topic people don't "deserve" induction... and I was just stating a fact.
Who is the one flaming '_

Again, I'm not saying anything about people currently in the HoF. I'm merely saying different people have different opinions about what constitutes a 'contribution to Apolyton'. How often do people post 'I can't believe X isn't in yet', especially in the smaller forums? I'm not the one saying people who disagree with me are arrogant pigs or that their opinions are pathetic whining.

The current system allows that already... you are mistaken in your opinion. If somebody is deserving, they can get a "block" support them. If not, maybe they don't really deserve it if only a few friends think so

They probably aren't worthy... based on the voting system. I can think of tons of people who have a chance and should be in... and I'm supporting those people and will get them in eventually... what's your problem

People have been block voting for Googlie and WesW ever since the HoF was moved out of the OTF, yet they aren't in yet. So just because all parts of the site except for Civ3 and OTF are currently too small to be able to make a big enough block to make a difference, does that mean they never made any contributions worth mentioning in the first place? Is this site just about Civ2, Civ3 and the OT, have the other sections never meant anything at all?

There was an attempt to block-vote Harlan in as well the last time around, which is why he's so high on the ranking now (for the first time ever). However, the attempt failed the first time and now everyone's moving on to other votes and Harlan's votes will be lost when DC cleans up the HoF again and it's very likely he'll never get in the HoF. Does that mean Harlan never made any contributions to the site worth honouring? Were his Civ2 Mongols, Vikings, WWII and LotR scenarios never that good to begin with? Where his CtP1 units ugly? Was his CtP2 Alexander the Great Scenario overrated? Are his Civ3 map site and resource mods worthless junk?

Again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be OTFers and Civ3ers in the HoF. It wouldn't be complete without names like Imran Siddiqui, Reismark, Stefu, Theseus or Trip (and many others). But can you truly say that a HoF without SMACers or Alt Civers and with only 2 people from 6 years of CtP history is a complete HoF, representative of all of Apolyton of the past 6+ years?

Yeah... let's change it so a few people can get their friends in

Again, I don't care one bit for SMACers, Civ2ers or Alt Civers. They are not my friends, I don't even know most of them. Yet I'm promoting to get them in the HoF. Just as I always mention important events in the SMAC, Civ2 and Alt Civ communities when writing my Staff Views for the Birthday features and why I've written news items for every section of the site and things like that. Not because I care about them myself, but because they are important to this site and I want them to get a fair amount of exposure. Sorry, saying I only care about my own personal friends is a nice easy way to attempt to debunk my arguments but it just doesn't fly.

That's not really the concept. The concept is that if a BUNCH of people think somebody is worth it, they can get in... and that's how it works, and it's working fine.

That's exactly what's wrong with the concept. What you're describing is the concept of a popularity contest and if that's what the HoF is supposed to be, then that would work fine. However, the intent of DC is that the HoF should be more than that (even if it isn't now), which is exactly why I'm offering my suggestions.

If all you want is a little club, nobody will close down a thread aimed at a "SMALL" group that wants to recogonize their own. And as you state, there is no reason to start a million threads, because nobody will care about your little club.

So if it doesn't meet your requirements for a good HoF it would indeed get shut down. That's absolutely fine with me. In fact, I agree with you, having a several different kinds of HoFs doesn't do anyone any good and only clutters real discussions. But then don't tell me to start my own HoF when I'm giving suggestions to open this one up to more communities...

You are the one that started the ill will. Your opinion is that OTF'ers don't deserve the title, but your personal friends that are in small groups do. Live and let live...

Again, I've spent 2 paragraphs in my first and one in my second post explaining OTFers DO deserve to be in and MUST in fact be in if the HoF is to be complete. However, other sections should also be present.

One could just as easily reverse the argument and say you're opposed to any change because *you* can get all *your* friends in as it is, because the current setup happens to be biased towards your friends. IMO both reasonings equally flawed...

I don't want anyone's friends to get in: mine, yours or anyone else's. I want those people to get in who made valuable contributions to this site, wherever they made these contributions. In OT discussions, in Civ2 scenarios, in SMAC stories, in CtP strategies, in Civ3 MP games, in Alt Civ programming, anywhere. In my opinion, these are all equally important areas of the site, and they should all be represented in a HoF.

The whole thing boils down to one issue: you say the entire site is represented if the entire site is allowed to vote for one spot, while I say the entire site is represented if all sections of the site are allowed to vote for their own spot (or some other system that represents all sections of the site and not just the ones which currently happen to have the most traffic). It's not really that big a difference, we both want a HoF that's representative of the whole site. We both feel that a HoF that excludes or discriminates against the OT or Civ2 is a bad thing. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Are you two guys going to ban each other

Sorry to disappoint, but Ming and I are perfectly capable of having an intelligent discussion without resorting to... 'fighting' of any sorts