Are You Ready For Some FOOTBALL - Week 5

[Imran Siddiqui]

The bottom line is, Gruden has won the Super Bowl, and that's what it's all about.

I really don't think that proves anything. I say you put Dungy into Tampa in 2002 and he wins the SB too. It's like saying Joe Torre is a HOF manager for winning the World Series with a team that Dallas Green could manage to a championship.

edit: And head coaches that don't win the Super Bowl aren't considered bad coaches. Marv Levy just went into the Hall of Fame and I think many would consider him a better coach than, say, Barry Switzer who has won a SuperBowl.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I really don't think that proves anything. I say you put Dungy into Tampa in 2002 and he wins the SB too.

Maybe... maybe not. While I would agree that a trained monkee could probably get the Yankees into the playoffs, and maybe even win a World Series... Head Coaches in football have far more impact on the team then a manager in Baseball. Teams with the best talent do lose... Football is more of a team sport than baseball.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Head Coaches in football have far more impact on the team then a manager in Baseball.

While that is true, Gruden hasn't really shown me anything. That Defense was simply amazing and I'm sure a number of coaches could have used that weapon to win a Superbowl (*cough* Brian Billick )

[Ming]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
While that is true, Gruden hasn't really shown me anything. That Defense was simply amazing and I'm sure a number of coaches could have used that weapon to win a Superbowl (*cough* Brian Billick )

Again... a lot of truth in that... but they still have to use the weapons they have been given right. And the fact is, Gruden did win one. With similar talent... Dungy couldn't

[Imran Siddiqui]

I actually think that they added some players after Dungy left in that offseason. It wasn't the exact same team as Dungy left. The core was the same, but some of the role players (who really are what win championships) were different.

But, of course it ALWAYS happens that way. They always can the guy that brought them there before the team makes it big (such as Showalter with the Yankees). I've always thought that the team would have won with the old coach in those situations.

Because, as we see now, Gruden has brought in his guys and they really, really, really suck. Hell, even last year they were pretty bad.

Oh, and of course, when in Oakland, Gruden never led his team to the Superbowl, but Callahan did. Does that mean Callahan is the better coach?

[reismark]

You're forgetting something very important about Dungy, Imran. He's not an offensive mind. He never called the plays while he was in Tampa - the offensive coordinators did, and before Gruden came in, a new OC was a yearly occurrance. We would not have won the Super Bowl in 2002 even with that defense because with Dungy, the offense would not have held up its end. Without Gruden's scheming, we get crushed by the Eagles (again) and we're not talking about the monkey on the Eagles' back...

Because, as we see now, Gruden has brought in his guys and they really, really, really suck. Hell, even last year they were pretty bad.

Why were we bad last year? Keyshawn being an ass, and injuries. Brian Kelly, John Lynch, Shelton Quarles, Mike Alstott, Joe Jurevicius. And it's the same story this year, only this time we have arrogant holdouts to worry about as well. When we play a game next year when Garner, Galloway, Jurevicius, Pittman, Dudley (our pass-catching TE who we just lost for two months) and McCardell (or whoever replaces him) are all healthy and available, and we struggle then, THEN you can say we suck.

Oh, and of course, when in Oakland, Gruden never led his team to the Superbowl, but Callahan did. Does that mean Callahan is the better coach?

• I firmly believe if not for the Snow Bowl ruling, it would have been the Raiders and not the Patriots beating the Rams in the Super Bowl that year.
• Callahan had essentially the same core in 2003 and he fell flat on his ass. Why? Because he was carried by players' career years the year before and he learned absolutely nothing from the well-deserved beating we put on him in the Super Bowl (translation: RUN THE GODDAMN BALL). Hence, there is no way you can make a case that Callahan's a better coach than Gruden.

[Imran Siddiqui]

We would not have won the Super Bowl in 2002 even with that defense because with Dungy, the offense would not have held up its end.

Um... like I've shown the offense wasn't that much better in 2002 than in 2001, and the offense in 2000 was better than in 2002.

Why were we bad last year? Keyshawn being an ass, and injuries. Brian Kelly, John Lynch, Shelton Quarles, Mike Alstott, Joe Jurevicius. And it's the same story this year, only this time we have arrogant holdouts to worry about as well. When we play a game next year when Garner, Galloway, Jurevicius, Pittman, Dudley (our pass-catching TE who we just lost for two months) and McCardell (or whoever replaces him) are all healthy and available, and we struggle then, THEN you can say we suck.

Other teams don't have injuries? It's a fact of life in football and you have to deal with them. The good teams get by with injuries. Sorry, but if sooo many people get injured under Gruden's watch, maybe it's because he doesn't train them well enough so that they avoid injuries. Some coaches have lower level of injuries because their training conditions the players better.

And holdouts and suspending players for the year for no absolute reason is a problem of the management and falls squarely on Gruden who pushed out one of the best GMs in the league (ie, Rich McKay) for his power trips.

I firmly believe if not for the Snow Bowl ruling, it would have been the Raiders and not the Patriots beating the Rams in the Super Bowl that year.

I seriously doubt it. The Pats won because the Rams didn't seem to take them seriously (partly because they had really no stars on the team). A Raiders team that was star-laden would not have been dismissed.

Hence, there is no way you can make a case that Callahan's a better coach than Gruden.

That was kind of my point . Callahan is not better than Gruden for simply getting to the SuperBowl in Oakland while Gruden did not. And Gruden is not better than Dungy in winning the Superbowl where Dungy did not.

All things being equal, if I had a team, I'd take Dungy to lead it before I'd ask Gruden to do so.

[Japher]

All things being equal, if I had a team, I'd take Dungy to lead it before I'd ask Gruden to do so.

Ditto. I felt bad when Tampa Bay won after his team got taken away from him. However, I do agree that Gruden is a better Offensive coach and Dunge had not put together an all to impressive squad for Tampa Bay, thus Gruden did some nice work with those boys.

Still, there are reasons you don't have one coach. Dungee would be my head coach over Gruden still, as I think Gruden is a pig headed alcoholic jackass (though that is mostly Al Davis' fault).

[-Jrabbit]

Well, there are two things going on here.

1. Objective measure of coaching effectiveness. I say a Super Bowl ring qualifies. That doesn't make those coaches the best, but it does (indisputably IMHO) mean they can get the job done.

2. Let's play GM. I'd definitely choose Dungy over Chucky. This is in part because as GM, I want a team player with leadership qualities, not some A-type jerk who's going to try getting me fired after we (inevitably) disagree.

Last thing -- Sorry, but you play the hand you're dealt. Tampa Bay DOES suck this year. The Beloved Bears DO suck this season. The Dolphins DO suck this season. They all have key players who are MIA. But they don't have excuses. That's what happens when you play in the Big Leagues.

[Japher]

The Niners Suk this year too! But we have salary cap excuses, can we count those? Our owner was a fewl, I think we are still paying for some referees

[Kidlicious]

I don't really think any coach is worse than Martz. Even though I agree with him on somethings that other disagree with him on, he still is the worst play caller in the NFL.

[Ming]

Since I usually take Bulger in the fantasy leagues, I have no problem with Martz calling 70 passes a game

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, Martz is bad as a gameday coach, but he's a fabulous offensive mind. He just can't call a game.

[Kidlicious]

I don't either. It's the calls like the squible kick against NO that I really disagree with.

[Ming]

Martz better start winning some games if he wants to keep his job. At least they are playing SF this week