John Kerry the Betrayer: Unfit to Command, part 3

[Drake Tungsten]

Kerry's Band of Brothers...

[Ned]

Drake, just noticed your signature. There is another statement Kerry made in the Senate I heard today. He said he was in Vietnam in '68, bullets whizzing about, when he heard the news of bullets killing Martin Luther King.

Problem is, King died in April. Kerry did not go to Vietnam for his second tour until November.

[Ned]

Molly, it hard for me or anyone to believe that we bombed everything that moved in Indochina just hoping that occasionally we would hit the enemy. That is ludicrous.

[Drake Tungsten]

Way ahead of you, Ned.

Problem is, it's not a definitive lie. Kerry may have been off the coast of Vietnam on the U.S.S. Gridley in April, 1968. If so, he can claim to have been in Vietnam, even if the statement reeks of deception.

Still a laughable statement, though, so up it goes...

[Berzerker]

"Our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek," which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border.

"I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border," said John E. O'Neill

Kind of important difference being "in" Cambodia and being 50 miles away, so using the standard he's applying to Kerry, O'Neill is a liar.

[Drake Tungsten]

You guys should really follow the news. O'Neill explained this on Hannity & Colmes. In December 1968 (when Kerry claimed to be in Cambodia), the Swift Boats didn't work any farther north on the Mekong than Sedek. The Swift Boats didn't just patrol the Mekong, though, and there was a place called Bernique's Creek near Ha Tien on the coast near the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. O'Neill claimed both he and Kerry went there, but not in December 1968. It's not clear yet whether O'Neill ever went into Cambodia, but it's also not clear that he's lying about this. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Funny that the Washington Post ran a headline accusing him of "lying" when the jury's still out, though. And by "funny" I mean "completely expected"...

edit: Had to correct my misremembering of the facts...

[Berzerker]

You guys should really follow the news. O'Neill explained this on Hannity & Colmes.

News? I saw him and he contradicted what he said to Nixon. He can't be "in" Cambodia and be near the border. Now, if he told Nixon in '71 that he had been in Cambodia and said he wasn't in Cambodia ~3 years earlier, fine... But now he's saying he was never in Cambodia.

So if both he and Kerry claim to be in Cambodia around 68-69 and O'Neill says Kerry is a liar for making that claim, then O'Neill is a liar using that same standard.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
Molly, it hard for me or anyone to believe that we bombed everything that moved in Indochina just hoping that occasionally we would hit the enemy. That is ludicrous.

Sorry Ned, old bean, but exactly what do you understand by 'CARPET' bombing?


Do you think it means dropping more bombs than were dropped on Japan in WWII on an area the size of a tasteful decorative prayer rug, perhaps, or maybe you think it implies the air force dropped vacuum cleaners, or proprietary cleaning products for floormats?


We've already seen in one quote how when they were bombing Laos, because they couldn't tell where the Pathet Lao guerillas were, they bombed existing bomb craters, or hamlets, or villages.


You can't see into dense jungle from 15 000 feet Ned.

You can't see individual guerillas from that height when they don't want to be seen, Ned.

All you're doing is the equivalent of what you've done before when faced with the necessary unpleasantries of an unethical foreign policy orchestrated by amoral individuals who hide the purpose and extent of it from Congress and the American people-

it's fingers in the ears and the blindfold on for Ned.



Must make using the p.c. darn difficult.

Oh, and Ned?

Kerry was on the U.S.S Gridley from December 1967 until June 1968. Which takes him two months past 4th April 4th 1968, when Martin Luther King was assassinated.

I note you don't provide the quote from Kerry (again) but perhaps you'd like to start saving up for a tinfoil hat, because you seem to be getting quite hysterical in your anti-Kerry fervour.

No pictures of him being dandled on Stalin's knee, or in bed with Mao in your possession yet?

[Drake Tungsten]

Kerry was on the U.S.S Gridley from December 1967 until June 1968. Which takes him two months past 4th April 4th 1968, when Martin Luther King was assassinated.

Doesn't prove anything. The U.S.S. Gridley went all over the western Pacific on its tour, including Vietnam. We don't know if Kerry off the coast of Vietnam on April 4th, 1968 or not yet. Unless you happen to have a detailed log of where the Gridley was on that day handy...

I note you don't provide the quote from Kerry (again)

Check my signature.

[Bosh]

Doesn't prove anything. The U.S.S. Gridley went all over the western Pacific on its tour, including Vietnam. We don't know if Kerry off the coast of Vietnam on April 4th, 1968 or not yet. Unless you happen to have a detailed log of where the Gridley was on that day handy...

If you don't know then why the hell are you using it as an example of Kerry lying. There are plenty of real lies to go around without dredging up the could-be lies.

[Drake Tungsten]

If you don't know then why the hell are you using it as an example of Kerry lying.

I'm not; didn't you read my post where I said it wasn't a definitive lie? The only reason I even brought it up was because Ned mentioned it. I've passed up plenty of possible Kerry lies because there are plenty of definitive Kerry lies to harp on. This is no exception.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You guys should really follow the news. O'Neill explained this on Hannity & Colmes. In December 1968 (when Kerry claimed to be in Cambodia), the Swift Boats didn't work any farther north on the Mekong than Sedek. The Swift Boats didn't just patrol the Mekong, though, and there was a place called Bernique's Creek near Ha Tien on the coast near the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. O'Neill claimed both he and Kerry went there, but not in December 1968. It's not clear yet whether O'Neill ever went into Cambodia, but it's also not clear that he's lying about this. I'm taking a wait and see approach.

Funny that the Washington Post ran a headline accusing him of "lying" when the jury's still out, though. And by "funny" I mean "completely expected"...

edit: Had to correct my misremembering of the facts...

I don't watch Fox (besides been too busy watching Olympics) but was O'Neill representing his comment about being in Cambodia to Nixon the equivalent to Kerrry saying he was in Vietnam when he heard MLK was killed. i.e. at or near Cambodia/Vietnam?

[Drake Tungsten]

I don't know. I can't watch Hannity & Colmes, for obvious reasons. I just read the transcript and some other people's comments on it.

I'm waiting for more information on this one. The facts are still pretty muddled.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Berzerker


News? I saw him and he contradicted what he said to Nixon. He can't be "in" Cambodia and be near the border. Now, if he told Nixon in '71 that he had been in Cambodia and said he wasn't in Cambodia ~3 years earlier, fine... But now he's saying he was never in Cambodia.

So if both he and Kerry claim to be in Cambodia around 68-69 and O'Neill says Kerry is a liar for making that claim, then O'Neill is a liar using that same standard.

I beleive the difference you speak to is a definitional problem. For those who worked the border of cambodia they refer to themsleves as in Cambodia (were I to guess). Yet they realize, that they weren't in the legal sovereign territoty of Cambodia proper as that was a legal no-no. When O'Neill speaks of it he speaks towards border patrol. When Kerry spoke of it on the Senate floor he was definitavely speaking towards being inside soveriegn territory to emphasize the illegal actions. One speaks towards illegality of the action the other speaks to general local.

Subtle distinction. You can fault the poor choice of words, but I think O'Neill has been on message saying that he was never inside Cambodia proper.

[Drake Tungsten]

The initial statement to Nixon is confusing in and of itself. He said he was in Cambodia, then he said he was on the border in his next breath. Which is it?