Chavez is da man

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Ah, the Prince of Relevance graces us with his presence.

Hey, my sarcastic remark had a lot of more relevance to the subject than most post in this thread. Considering the number of people that doesn't seem to have any problems at all with Pinochet - quite the opposite - if find it somewhat amusing that the same group of people find Chavez to be such a criminal.

Besides, I posted in this thread before you.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kropotkin

Hey, my sarcastic remark had a lot of more relevance to the subject than most post in this thread. Considering the number of people that doesn't seem to have any problems at all with Pinochet - quite the opposite - if find it somewhat amusing that the same group of people find Chavez to be such a criminal.

Besides, I posted in this thread before you.

I expect there's probably a large majority of people who don't like Chavez who aren't particularly fond of Pinochet. Chavez at least isn't a mass murderer, he has that going for him.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon


The similarities are superficial. Chavez isn't a Marxist, for one.

So he'll continue to jack the economy around without even the benefit of a failed economic theory?

[Agathon]

So he'll continue to jack the economy around without even the benefit of a failed economic theory?

Given the manifest failure of the Venezuelan economy to deal with mass poverty in the years prior to Chavez' election, that is a joke.

He has made impressive gains in health care and literacy among other things. When literacy is a problem in your country, capitalism isn't going to help much.

Look, all Chavez is trying to do is to raise the education and living standards of the poor so that they will be much like poor people in countries like Australia and New Zealand (i.e. they have access to health care and education). That means an expanded welfare state. Who knows how long this will be necessary, but leaving things as they were was clearly not an option according to the majority of Venezuelans.

Chavez isn't a fascist. He's been quite scrupulous about being as democratic as possible. He's not some sort of cynical fascist like Peron.

[dannubis]

funny how a country which claims to be the ultimate bastion of freedom is not willing to accept the results of a democratic referendum which was internationally supervised...

interfering again in other peoples domestic issues ? tsss

i wonder what the reaction would have been if chavez had demanded an additional recount of the votes in florida because he didn't like a ****** being president of his most powerful 'neighbour'

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by dannubis
funny how a country which claims to be the ultimate bastion of freedom is not willing to accept the results of a democratic referendum which was internationally supervised...

interfering again in other peoples domestic issues ? tsss

i wonder what the reaction would have been if chavez had demanded an additional recount of the votes in florida because he didn't like a ****** being president of his most powerful 'neighbour'

Funny, I didn't see any country not accepting the current vote. We'll tolerate Chavez as long as he keeps oil flowing.

Besides, other people don't have domestic issues unless we tell 'em to, and then we'll tell 'em what those issues are.

[dannubis]

honesty at last !

i hope it's infectuous so it spreads a bit...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon


Given the manifest failure of the Venezuelan economy to deal with mass poverty in the years prior to Chavez' election, that is a joke.

Given local corruption, bureaucratic inefficiency and other structural issues, substituting one form of mismangement for another isn't going to be really useful in the long run.

He has made impressive gains in health care and literacy among other things. When literacy is a problem in your country, capitalism isn't going to help much.

Which is all nice, assuming it can be sustained, assuming there's economic growth, and a whole bunch of other factors. It's a little early to cheer, since not much has occurred so far other than bandaids with a little smoke and mirrors.

Look, all Chavez is trying to do is to raise the education and living standards of the poor so that they will be much like poor people in countries like Australia and New Zealand (i.e. they have access to health care and education). That means an expanded welfare state. Who knows how long this will be necessary, but leaving things as they were was clearly not an option according to the majority of Venezuelans.

Which is real laudable and nice and all that, until changes in the oil markets, inefficiency in oil production, inflation and currency devaluation (give it all a little time) torpedoes the whole enterprise.

Chavez isn't a fascist. He's been quite scrupulous about being as democratic as possible.

They usually are. Being "as democratic as possible" leaves enough wiggle room to navigate a supertanker through.

He's not some sort of cynical fascist like Peron.

He's just a cynical thug, without enough education to have an ideology.

[Agathon]

Why don't you try to prove some of this. All you have posted is cynical accusation with no substance.

Anyway, from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=TSNCXU5E23MCACRBAELCFFA?type=worldNews&storyID=5999721&pageNumber=1

A State Department official, who asked not to be named, complained the opposition had not sought to substantiate their claims. "The bottom line is the opposition should put up or shut up," he said.

It looks like there are some sane people in the US.

And another interesting point.

These markets used to wince at Chavez's acerbic anti-capitalist rhetoric but they recognize that his self-styled "revolutionary" government is careful to pay its debts on time and practices a pragmatic financial policy.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
So he'll continue to jack the economy around without even the benefit of a failed economic theory?

Helped by lots of capitalists who are willing to sabotage Venezuelan economy to throw Chavez out.

He would have less of a problem if he had nationalised everything and tossed the fat bastards to the sharks.

[St Leo]

Does Venezuela have term limits?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Venezuelan president's only get one term?

Yes. Unfortunately it's for life.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by dannubis
funny how a country which claims to be the ultimate bastion of freedom is not willing to accept the results of a democratic referendum which was internationally supervised...

interfering again in other peoples domestic issues ? tsss

i wonder what the reaction would have been if chavez had demanded an additional recount of the votes in florida because he didn't like a ****** being president of his most powerful 'neighbour'

Who isn't accepting the referendum here?

And Venezuela is about as close to the U.S. as Russia is to Belgium.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Helped by lots of capitalists who are willing to sabotage Venezuelan economy to throw Chavez out.

He would have less of a problem if he had nationalised everything and tossed the fat bastards to the sharks.

Yea, it worked so well for China didn't it? Was your family lucky enough to enjoy the fruits of the revolution in China, or were they spared by living in Hong Kong? I visited Hong Kong in the mid-sixties, and I was horrified by the thousands of refugees living in rough conditions. Even the Phillipines seemed better at the time. I thought to myself that they (the refugees) risked their lives to live like this. Whatever is on the other side of that wall is worse.

[lord of the mark]

the problem venezuala has is oil.

That enabled the capitalist parties to survive without developing the country. And now its enabled Chavez to buy popularity. As long as the price of oil stays up, this is unlikely to change - at least until the time Venezulas neighbors pull substantially ahead using other industries, as happened to Indonesia. I dont see that happening anytime soon (note for these purposes Brazil is too far away - neighbors are Colombia, Central America, Carib states)

IIUC Chavez is accused of courtpacking,etc, but I presume there are constitutional arguments justifying him. I dont suppose he'll be less inclined to push the envelope after his win. Next question is will he change the constitution to allow successive terms?