Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

[General Ludd]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


But it is our own since we left Europe. European governments were largely uninvolved in the colonies until shortly before after the American Revolution (in what became Canada). We did almost everything of our own volition, and I think we have a right to claim it as our own history.

But I guess by your reasoning, Europeans have no claim to their history since their ancestors came from western Russia and Eurasia thousands of years ago. Its all just Russian culture and history.

It's not black and white. Once a population has been in a place long enough it stops being foreign and starts beign native. I guess that happened for american colonies at the coming of independance. I think you could reasonably say that since independance you would start to have a uniquely north american history... only that's when immigration starts to kick in and you all of a sudden have a 'metling pot' of cultures from all over, making it again hard to claim anything as distinct, and even harder for any real identity to form. I think that has happened in the USA to some extent (although there are still many voids and foreign niches left behind). But not in Canada. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

We aren't a country with heritage and we shouldn't pretend to be one. I'd rather have a mish-mash of foreign and native cultures that acknowledges the fact that we're a society built on the destruction of native culture and tradition and introduction foregin culture, than to try and hemogenize under some sort of 'true canadian identity' that ignores the real history of north america.

EDIT: Of course, that isn't reality either. But that's what I would like to see. The real problem is the voids left by people with no history or identity here to relate to, after abandoning their real heritage.

[molly bloom]

Re: Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Inspired by patikis' comments in LeftHand's thread, why do Europeans see North Americans as being cultureless and backwards?

Discuss.

Paiktis has a downer on any manifestation of Anglo-Saxon culture- American, British, Australian, he's happy to sneer at every aspect, from the food to the language itself, to 'our' racism, to the society, et cetera.


He isn't an exemplar of all Europeans (nor all Greeks for that matter) but just one bilious Timon of Athens or Thersites, flinging imprecations at the supposed barbarians.

I for one in the old Civ 3 days staunchly defended the concept of uniquely American culture and American contributions to world civilization- the quintessentially 20th Century world city was New York, a focal point for experimentation in the arts, and a haven for refugees.

The idea that North American contributions to culture were always looked askance at in Europe isn't true- Cotton Mather was the first member of the Royal Scoiety of Great Britain to have been born in Nnorth America:

'He was deeply interested in science and was the first native-born American to be a fellow of the Royal Society. He persuaded Zabdiel Boylston to inoculate against smallpox and supported the unpopular inoculation even when his life was threatened.'

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ma/Mather-C.html

Then there's the incredible popularity of jazz and blues in early twentieth century Paris, and the mania for the works of Edgar Allan Poe in 19th Century France.


As for Canadian contributions, one of the problems for Canadians is that people who aren't familiar with the different accent will keep on mistaking them for being American- Canadians such as William Shatner, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Lorne Greene are readily thought of as being from south of the border down Yanqui way.


Let's hear it for the North Americans:


Robertson Davies, Denys Arcand, Thomas Jefferson, Bill Reid, Cole Porter, Bessie Smith, Gertrude Stein, Robert Oppenheimer, Dorothy Parker, Muddy Waters and the Group of Seven.

http://www.mcmichael.com/group.htm

I North America.

[DinoDoc]

It's kind of hard to take comments about America being cultureless from people just coming from seeing our movies and eating Big Macs.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by General Ludd


It's not black and white. Once a population has been in a place long enough it stops being foreign and starts beign native. I guess that happened for american colonies at the coming of independance. I think you could reasonably say that since independance you would start to have a uniquely north american history... only that's when immigration starts to kick in and you all of a sudden have a 'metling pot' of cultures from all over, making it again hard to claim anything as distinct, and even harder for any real identity to form. I think that has happened in the USA to some extent (although there are still many voids and foreign niches left behind). But not in Canada. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

We aren't a country with heritage and we shouldn't pretend to be one. I'd rather have a mish-mash of foreign and native cultures that acknowledges the fact that we're a society built on the destruction of native culture and tradition and introduction foregin culture, than to try and hemogenize under some sort of 'true canadian identity' that ignores the real history of north america.

Since independece?? You've got to be kidding me, there was still 200 years of history before that.

And Ontario is not Canada. Ontario is very new, and was only really settled after the Am. Rev. What about Quebec? Newfoundland? Nova Scotia? They have had distinct cultures since well before the revolution. As has New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Virgina, etc, etc...

Like, you really think people in the colonies and people in Europe were exactly the same, or even close to the same (relatively speaking) prior to the revolution?

Someone must agree with me (besides Emerson and Thoreau).

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Re: Re: Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

Originally posted by molly bloom
I North America.

Hell yeah! You've got the post revolution stuff down.

I would argue it goes alot further back too, from the late 1500's on.

[Agathon]

Canadians such as William Shatner, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Lorne Greene are readily thought of as being from south of the border down Yanqui way.

Dear Molly,

I sympathize with your attempt to defend North Americans as cultured people, but I don't think that giving as examples the stars of Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and Bonanza! is really helping your cause.

Kudos for Joni Mitchell, but her vocal brillance is cancelled out by the woefully tuneless Shatner. (BTW my brother has all the Shatner albums)

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn

What about Quebec? Newfoundland? Nova Scotia? They have had distinct cultures since well before the revolution. As has New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Virgina, etc, etc...

Like I said before, I'm not saying there isn't any culture to be found... just that there is more void than substance, and that the culture we do have is diverse (and mostly inherited), and can't really be made into a 'Canadian identity'.

[Ted Striker]

The idea that North America lacks culture and that the culture we do have is totally dependent on Euro culture is completely ridiculous.

Southern US American culture has dominated the world for the last 100 years. There is no such rich tradition that combines African, working class European, and American Indian culture, all together. This is completely indigenous to America.

Just an example, bluegrass, R&B, blues, jazz, all those are completley new creations that existed nowhere else in the world yet form the foundation of most of the world culture today. Louisiana and Tennessee alone have an amazing array of rich culture that continues to inspire.

Saying we are dependent on European culture is like saying Europeans were dependent on Roman culture.

[chequita guevara]

We have a culture, it's just a lower class culture, as opposed to the upper class culture the Europeans have. Ours is the culture of farmers, hunters, and factory workers.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Ted Striker

Saying we are dependent on European culture is like saying Europeans were dependent on Roman culture.

...


Well, they are.

[Ted Striker]

Also what most people refer to as "European culture" has also been more static and stagnant and institutionalized, and dominated by the elite class, wheras American culture comes from the working class.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Ours is the culture of farmers, hunters, and factory workers.

Which is usually a culture of "Drink 'till you're too drunk to realise you've got nothing else"

[Ted Striker]

I think you should see more of the world, General Ludd.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
We have a culture, it's just a lower class culture, as opposed to the upper class culture the Europeans have. Ours is the culture of farmers, hunters, and factory workers.

Well said Commie.

[Agathon]

I don't think that there is a major difference in the percentage of people who engage in cultural activities as opposed to mass market consumer crap (although it's not an exclusive distinction).

What is different is that in European countries and to a lesser extent in other non-American English speaking countries there is state funded public broadcasting and an increased role for the state in arts funding.

While, the difference is somewhat offset by the American tradition of philanthropy, things that aren't mass market consumer culture have a harder time being visible. If you watch PBS, there is all sorts of good stuff on (and some lame Britcoms), it's just that elsewhere that stuff often gets played on the state owned networks (although not as much as it used to).