Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Which, interestingly enough, is in the United States.

sortof

[Agathon]

Molly, HOW DARE you mock the Lone Ranger!!!!

Anyway, gotta love that native Utah culture.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You really think they've had a great influence on our national culture? Okay, in certain aspects. Our political culture, which I would argue is better than most of what Europe can claim, owes much to Jefferson. Yeah, we had some upper class writers, and American literature owes a bit to its upper crust, but our two greatest 19th Century writers, Poe and Twain, were both from the lower class. Our greatest 20th Century writers have been lower class.

Ever been to Boston?

[Agathon]

Don't forget John Steinbeck!!!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You really think they've had a great influence on our national culture? Okay, in certain aspects. Our political culture, which I would argue is better than most of what Europe can claim, owes much to Jefferson. Yeah, we had some upper class writers, and American literature owes a bit to its upper crust, but our two greatest 19th Century writers, Poe and Twain, were both from the lower class. Our greatest 20th Century writers have been lower class.

Ohh, come on, Poe wasn't lower class- he'd had an education in Great Britain, certainly something far beyond the reach of the majority of any of the lower classes. That he died destitute and alcoholic isn't a class indicator, just bad judgment or poor moral character on his part.

I'd certainly say that William James had a great influence, on philosophy and culture in general, not just in America. Then there's the Transcendentalists:

http://www.litkicks.com/BeatPages/page.jsp?what=TranscendentalAmerica

Nathaniel Hawthorne isn't generally regarded as being 'working class', nor is Edith Wharton, nor the painter John Singer Sargent.

You are including Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot amongst America's greatest 20th Century writers, then ?

And Gertrude Stein?


Dorothy Parker?

John Updike?


William Burroughs?


William Faulkner?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon
Molly, HOW DARE you mock the Lone Ranger!!!!

Anyway, gotta love that native Utah culture.

Krazy Horses, waaaahhhh! waaahhhh!



Oh good gravy, it's like an advertisement for Better Living Through Dentistry, Big Hair and Polyester Flares.

Where's the projectile vomiting smiley when you need it?


Still, they aren't the Bay City Rollers.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Ever been to Boston?

You mean that city of working class Irish and Italians?

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You mean that city of working class Irish and Italians?

Yes, but ever hear of Beacon Hill? The Back Bay?

[chequita guevara]

I've heard of the Bay City Rollers.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I've heard of the Bay City Rollers.

That was San Francisco.

But you should know Boston has had a very distinct and influential upper class since the colonial days. Sometimes they are called the Boston Brahmins, some call them "yankees", but they are there are are very upper class. Countless important and influential politicians, writers, scientists, etc have come from there.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You mean that city of working class Irish and Italians?

Nah. The place that's chocker with the American aristocracy:


"So this is good old Boston,

The home of the bean and the cod,

Where the Lowells talk only to the Cabots,

And the Cabots talk only to God."


"The term "Boston Brahmins" refers to a class of wealthy, educated, elite members of Boston society in the nineteenth century. Oliver Wendell Holmes coined the term in a novel in 1861, calling Boston's elite families "the Brahmin Caste of New England." The Boston Brahmins have long held the interest of casual and professional historians because of their unique place in nineteenth-century American culture. They were mostly the descendants of Puritans, having made their fortunes as American merchants, and they could not be described as egalitarian. Rather, they were the closest thing the United States has ever had to a true aristocracy.

At Odds with Democracy

In her book Elite Families, Betty G. Farrell writes, "Visiting Boston for the first time in the 1830s, Harriet Martineau noted that it was 'perhaps as aristocratic, vain, and vulgar a city, as described by its own "first people," as any in the world.' What particularly distressed Martineau was the evidence of an aristocracy of wealth amid a new republic, a group whose cultural pretensions and social exclusivity she saw as particularly at odds with the democratic ideals of egalitarianism and inclusive citizenship."

Socially Exclusive

Several factors, besides wealth, made Boston's Brahmins stand out as an aristocracy even from the wealthy of other cities. With waves of immigration to America's cities in the middle of the nineteenth century, the position of the wealthy and elite in every city was threatened. But in New York and Chicago, despite prejudice, the influence of immigrants quickly took root. In Boston, the Brahmins fought fiercely to close immigrants out. While they may have prided themselves on being the champions of abolitionism, they did not actually want black Americans, or any other non-Brahmin group, encroaching on their power or society."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/murder/peopleevents/p_brahmins.html

[Agathon]

The Bay City Rollers were one in the long line of vile British pop acts.

[Bereta_Eder]

Re: Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Inspired by patikis' comments in LeftHand's thread, why do Europeans see North Americans as being cultureless and backwards?

As it regards Americans, people will usually point to current politics as the reason, but this has been going on since this continent was first colonized in the early 17th century.

Whats more, alot of North Americans (especially Canadians) believe this nonsense and think we have nothing to offer as far as culture and tradition, while the opposite is clearly true.

So, Euros et al, Iraq war and GWB aside, why do you think we're all just a bunch of cookie-cutter provincials on this side of the world? And North Americans, why do you believe it?

Discuss.

Eh? Funny what you wrote... considering I never called you specifically (the french canadian community) cultureless or backwards. I simply stated a fact about your pronunciation. One which you have trouble accepting. That's fine.

Funny that you filled the void with your conceptions about yourself, but they are your conceptions, I didn't say anything of that sort. (of course I believe it and have substantiated it for the US but nevertheless I did not say it in lefty's thread) - we were discussing something completely different.


I view your culture as "hamburger" culture, something not really nurising, certaintly not healthy and definitely not rich but ok for filling your stomach for an hour or two.

But I come from a country where if a song doesn't have a layer of 4 readings it's considered a song for dogs or mindless casanovas.

This is not always a good thing. I laugh in a good way at some of the "carelessness" of the new world and I laugh also in a good way in your little child mentality and naivete.

Plus to say that you're completely cultureless is a minor injustice. You did produce some culture, nothing really noteworthy so far, but you do a good job at filling dirt cheaply the dead hours of TV chanels with your "culture".


Anyway you do an injustice to yourself to compare to someone like me, I'm Greek culture is ingrained in my bones.
You can compare yourself to a dane or someone other in the continent. There are plenty of european countries which have a very minor production of indigenous culture and are in a sad position to feed off your own.
You'd feel more at ease comparing yourselves with them.


Again sorry for making you thinking that in THAT particular thread but I never said anything of that sort there.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
But you should know Boston has had a very distinct and influential upper class since the colonial days. Sometimes they are called the Boston Brahmins, some call them "yankees", but they are there are are very upper class. Countless important and influential politicians, writers, scientists, etc have come from there.

pssst...You really shouldn't use the word "yankee" in correlation with the city of Boston...

All Baseball talk aside, there is a great deal of American culture. As far as Boston goes, it has often been the upper class that has had influence, from Adams to Kennedy to Kerry. There have, however, been those from the lower class in Boston and the area who have done great things to contribute to American culture, including Poe, Thoreau, Dickinson, Kerouac, Frost, and even Aerosmith.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Re: Re: Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

Originally posted by paiktis22

This is not always a good thing. I laugh in a good way at some of the "carelessness" of the new world and I laugh also in a good way in your little child mentality and naivete.

Plus to say that you're completely cultureless is a minor injustice. You did produce some culture, nothing really noteworthy so far, but you do a good job at filling dirt cheaply the dead hours of TV chanels with your "culture".

Anyway you do an injustice to yourself to compare to someone like me, I'm Greek culture is ingrained in my bones.
You can compare yourself to a dane or someone other in the continent. There are plenty of european countries which have a very minor production of indigenous culture and are in a sad position to feed off your own.
You'd feel more at ease comparing yourselves with them.

I don't know if you're specifically speaking about a certain region of Canada or all of North America, but I don't care. Your head is in your ass.

What have the Greeks done since being beaten and overtaken by the Romans? You have given nothing new to the world of any importance since the Greek Orthodox Church. Yes, your culture has survived quite nicely, but a great deal of that is due to Roman incorperation of your people and your gods and your stories. What North America has done in 200 years rivals what yours did through its entire existence; the only reason you have a better recognition is that yours has had more time to be diseminated through the world (again, thank you Rome).