Why is there a general sneering going on east to west?

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Inspired by patikis' comments in LeftHand's thread, why do Europeans see North Americans as being cultureless and backwards?

As it regards Americans, people will usually point to current politics as the reason, but this has been going on since this continent was first colonized in the early 17th century.

Whats more, alot of North Americans (especially Canadians) believe this nonsense and think we have nothing to offer as far as culture and tradition, while the opposite is clearly true.

So, Euros et al, Iraq war and GWB aside, why do you think we're all just a bunch of cookie-cutter provincials on this side of the world? And North Americans, why do you believe it?

Discuss.

[Al B. Sure!]

not really, jimmy... during the 18th and early 19th century, the general European view of the Americas was based on the noble savage and the benjamin franklin sort of pragmatic genius colonial, both of which were very positive stereotypes.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
not really, jimmy... during the 18th and early 19th century, the general European view of the Americas was based on the noble savage and the benjamin franklin sort of pragmatic genius colonial, both of which were very positive stereotypes.

Obviously we're not seen as entirely bad, otherwise no one would have come here... but I think there has always been an underlying thought that we are nothing but stupid pig farmers.

[Whaleboy]

That is because you have only bad culture, and all of your traditions suck! There I said it .

I think in all seriousness it's to do (in the UK) with the traditional perception of the Jacobites, many of whom formed the first pilgrim immigrants to North America, and the perception, real or not, if your nations stubborness, self-righteousness, perceived ill-consideration, desperately ultra-conservative attitudes and Alabama. Note that is all a question of perception not a statement of fact.

[Al B. Sure!]

but the early colonists were not mostly jacobite... there were plenty of puritan parliamentarians among them. hence the colonies' early pro-democratic sentiments.

[General Ludd]

I see north america as being cultureless and backwards, and I live here. While Europe, of course, is cultured and backwards.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

That is because you have only bad culture, and all of your traditions suck!

Whether you meant it or not (I suspect you were being sarcastic), this is exactly the sentiment I am talking about.

And Albert is correct, it wasn't just one group that came over, so saying that it was because of an old stereotype of a group in Europe isn't true.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

I see north america as being cultureless and backwards

Notice I said "especially Canadians" in my first post. Why do you feel this way?

I suspect these notions coming from a North American comes from lack of education regarding our history of the Colonial period (basically everything before the AmRev, since it essentially created the US and Canada as a result).

[General Ludd]

Europe has thousands of years of history.Canada and the USA have no real history, and what they do have is inherited from europe.

The native culture of north america - which was rich - has been more or less destroyed. What we're left with is few hundred years of history made up by people from other parts of the world, and mostly europe. (which gives even more reason for them to hold the view that north america lacks any sort of distinct culture or heritage)

I think it's completely right to say north america lacks culture and tradition. It doesn't mean that there aren't bits to be discovered, but for the most part there is either a void or an amalgimation of foreign cultures.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Europe has thousands of years of history.Canada and the USA have no real history, and what they do have is inherited from europe.

The native culture of north america - which was rich - has been more or less destroyed. What we're left with is few hundred years of history made up by people from other parts of the world, and mostly europe. (which gives even more reason for them to hold the view that north america lacks any sort of distinct culture or heritage)

I think it's completely right to say north america lacks culture and tradition. It doesn't mean that there aren't bits to be discovered, but for the most part there is either a void or an amalgimation of foreign cultures.

Well, exactly... since we're essentially Europeans, and if we have no culture or traditions, that would mean they don't either.

And we have history from, pretty much, 1600 - present. Thats 400 years, nothing to laugh at. How much do you know about our colonial history other than that "columbus sailed the ocean blue", and that the pilgrims came a bit after. There are so many fascinating events and political intrigues in the early periods.

And maybe Europe has thousands of years of history, but its not like most of the continent did anything important until they started coming over here anyways.

Edit: Ludd, I truly pity your self loathing. You must really feel like you come from nothing.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


Well, exactly... since we're essentially Europeans, and if we have no culture or traditions, that would mean they don't either.

But the problem is that we aren't claiming to have a european history, we're claiming to have our own.

And we have history from, pretty much, 1600 - present. Thats 400 years, nothing to laugh at. How much do you know about our colonial history other than that "columbus sailed the ocean blue", and that the pilgrims came a bit after. There are so many fascinating events and political intrigues in the early periods.

I'm no historian, but I probably do know more Canadian history than the average bum. Of course, going by this argument, even if we did have a vibrant and unique heritage, if it isn't being taught and passed on than it doesn't count for anything. (which is not to say that it couldn't, of course. But this is what we've got.)

But, again... that history is mostly just a colonial history. Not something we can really claim as being Canadian, or American, or whatever - it's European history. A history that was fueled by the destruction of the real north american cultures.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn

Edit: Ludd, I truly pity your self loathing. You must really feel like you come from nothing.

Self loathing? I'm just being realistic.


Believe me, when I was a kid I was quite the flamboyant patriot. Had a real interest in Canadian history. I remember staying up through the night once watching a series of documentaries about the war of 1812 and wondering why i never heard about it in school. But that doesn't change the fact that our 'rich heritage' is just a bunch of europeans playing about leotards.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

But the problem is that we aren't claiming to have a european history, we're claiming to have our own.

But it is our own since we left Europe. European governments were largely uninvolved in the colonies until shortly before & after the American Revolution (in what became Canada). We did almost everything of our own volition, and I think we have a right to claim it as our own history.

But I guess by your reasoning, Europeans have no claim to their history since their ancestors came from western Russia and Eurasia thousands of years ago. Its all just Russian culture and history.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by General Ludd
But that doesn't change the fact that our 'rich heritage' is just a bunch of europeans playing about leotards.

But its not true, and not realistic. The history goes far further than 1812, and very very very early on peolpe started identifying themselves as "Americans", a term which was used in Europe as well. After the first generation, they weren't Europeans.

[chequita guevara]

Because in Europe, aristocrats helped develop their native cultures. When the bourgeoisie rose there, they attempted to imitate the aristocrats, thus continuing and expanding on their culutres. America, on the other hand, never had an aristocracy. Our bourgeoisie had no one to imitate, and so when they rose up out of the common farmers of America, they weren't all that different.

Today, EUrope still has hundreds of years of cultureal history upon which to draw. We, on the other hand, have our culture renewed ever year so that corporations can sell us new stuff.