France!

[KrazyHorse]

a) I know it does

b) Cutting and drawing are different things. The psychological difference in an attacker's mind might revolve around the fact that cutting something into somebody is a permanent disfigurement whereas a marker is easily washed off. If you're going to go to the effort, you may as well do it in a way which sticks. Also, a faker is less likely to go to the extent of cutting herself than she is to do something which causes her no pain.

[KrazyHorse]

Again, I'm not saying it was necessarily faked, but I've had doubts about this one from the start. The lack of any corroborating evidence when there should be mounds of it is a big sign.

[Drake Tungsten]

I find it obvious Drake wouldn't have raised the issue if somthing like that had occured elsewhere than France.

You're incorrect. I'd be all over this if it had happened in Germany or the Netherlands or some other western European country. Not Beligium, though, as Belgium is irrelevant.

[Drake Tungsten]

The New York Times thinks it really happened. So do the French police, it seems.

France Condemns Anti-Semitic Attack
By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: July 12, 2004

PARIS, July 11 — Politicians have condemned an anti-Semitic attack against a young woman and her baby on a commuter train near Paris on Friday, the latest in a string of such incidents in France.

Six young men accused the woman of being Jewish, then used a knife to cut her clothing and drew three swastikas on her stomach with a marker. The attackers also overturned the stroller carrying the woman's 13-month-old baby.

President Jacques Chirac, in a statement on Saturday, asked that everything possible be done "to find the authors of this shameful act."

According to a police spokesman, the attackers surrounded the woman, apparently in an attempt to steal the child's stroller. One young man grabbed the woman's backpack and examined her identity papers, which gave her address as the upscale 16th Arrondissement of Paris.

"At this, one of them said, `She's a rich kid,' " the police spokesman said. "And then he adds, `There are only Jews in the 16th.' "

The spokesman said the woman was not Jewish and no longer lives in the 16th Arrondissement.

The attackers, who appeared to be of North African and African origin, slashed the woman's clothing and cut off a lock of her hair — "as a souvenir," one attacker is reported as saying. After cutting the stroller, the attackers overturned it and got off the train, taking the woman's credit card and 200 euros or about $248. The baby suffered a bruise.

The government has reported more anti-Semitic incidents for the first half of 2004 than for all of 2003.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/international/europe/12PARI.html

Article also backs up Oerdin's alarming figures on the massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in France.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Article also backs up Oerdin's alarming figures on the massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in France.

As I said, there was also a massive decrease last year, when agressive policing was first put into place.

It would be more interesting to compare with 2002 and 2001. I would sadly not be surprised if antisemitic violence was on the rise (and a significant one), but not something like "it doubles every year".

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Asher

I'm sure it never happens, just like gays are never tied up to a remote Wyoming fencepost and severely beaten, left for dead.

...and the perps are never sentenced to life in prison after pleading guilty to avoid the death penalty...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
And, of course, there start to be doubts about the woman's story. I didn't want to say anything about my suspicions, given the awful nature of the attack (if it happened) but things did not seem to me to add up.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/07/12/france.attack.ap/index.html

Surveillance cameras at the station where the culprits reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and no witnesses have come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity.

If the facts turn out to be otherwise than as initially reported, then of course this is not a sign of anything other than a troubled young woman. AFAIK its too early too tell.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The New York Times thinks it really happened. So do the French police, it seems.

France Condemns Anti-Semitic Attack
By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: July 12, 2004

PARIS, July 11 — Politicians have condemned an anti-Semitic attack against a young woman and her baby on a commuter train near Paris on Friday, the latest in a string of such incidents in France.

Six young men accused the woman of being Jewish, then used a knife to cut her clothing and drew three swastikas on her stomach with a marker. The attackers also overturned the stroller carrying the woman's 13-month-old baby.

President Jacques Chirac, in a statement on Saturday, asked that everything possible be done "to find the authors of this shameful act."

According to a police spokesman, the attackers surrounded the woman, apparently in an attempt to steal the child's stroller. One young man grabbed the woman's backpack and examined her identity papers, which gave her address as the upscale 16th Arrondissement of Paris.

"At this, one of them said, `She's a rich kid,' " the police spokesman said. "And then he adds, `There are only Jews in the 16th.' "

The spokesman said the woman was not Jewish and no longer lives in the 16th Arrondissement.

The attackers, who appeared to be of North African and African origin, slashed the woman's clothing and cut off a lock of her hair — "as a souvenir," one attacker is reported as saying. After cutting the stroller, the attackers overturned it and got off the train, taking the woman's credit card and 200 euros or about $248. The baby suffered a bruise.

The government has reported more anti-Semitic incidents for the first half of 2004 than for all of 2003.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/international/europe/12PARI.html

Article also backs up Oerdin's alarming figures on the massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in France.

Duh. The French police aren't going to accuse her of making stuff up unless they have proof it didn't happen. What would they look like if they said they doubted her story and then it turns out it actually happened? They're going to play blind man until they're 100% sure. Now explain to me why the surveillance camera footage doesn't show anybody running from the train where she said they did.

f the facts turn out to be otherwise than as initially reported, then of course this is not a sign of anything other than a troubled young woman. AFAIK its too early too tell.

I agree. Just like if the attacks had actually occurred then it wouldn't be a sign of anything other than a group of disturbed young men, right?

Threads like this one piss me off, especially when the president of France himself, along with numerous other politicians and every major newspaper in the country all came out to decry what sounded like an appalling attack and lack of reaction on the part of the other passengers. The "holier-than-thou" attitude toward an entire country due to the actions of a small minority is indicative of the same sort of bigoted mindset the thread is condemning.

And I agree that I don't know one way or the other whether or not the attack happened at this point. But there are several elements which provoke suspicion:

1) This woman has made a number of complaints to police about being assaulted in the recent past, none of which were supported by any corroborating evidence

2) The cutting of hair and drawing on the skin are both cosmetic disfigurements which do no lasting damage, a sign of false accusation

3) No witnesses whatsoever have come forward, despite promises of anonymity

4) The surveillance camera footage from the station where the woman said the attackers disembarked does not, in fact, show men of the description she gave disembarking

5) The absolute randomness of the choice of victim seems suspicious to me. I would expect more an attack on a woman leaving a synagogue or a man wearing a yarmulke etc. Something to make the victim stand out from the crowd.

[Last Conformist]

Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

[Drake Tungsten]

Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

Don't say that. People are going to criticize your holier-than-thou attitude and bigoted mindset.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

Indeed, and even if the story turns out to be bogus, the political elite will nonetheless say there is a real problem. Which is true, whether this particular story is true or not.

[Drake Tungsten]

God I hate it when KH is right...

French Officials: Hate Crime Fabricated

By JOCELYN GECKER, Associated Press Writer

PARIS - Just days after claiming to having been the victim of a cruel anti-Semitic attack that stunned France, a young mother confessed she fabricated the story, authorities said Tuesday.

The woman had claimed she was robbed on a suburban train Friday by a knife-wielding gang that mistook her for a Jew and scrawled swastikas on her body.

Police could find no clues or witnesses and took the woman in for questioning Tuesday.

There was no immediate explanation of the woman's motives for having made up the story.

Reports of the attack in a suburban Paris train outraged France, drawing fierce condemnation from politicians and Jewish groups.

The woman told police her young attackers were of North African and African origin and that none of some 20 witnesses in the train car came to her rescue. She said the gang robbed her and turned over a stroller holding her infant, causing the baby to tumble to the floor.

Newspapers gave the story front-page prominence Monday with headlines like "The Train of Hate."

But, by Tuesday, front pages turned skeptical. "Questions on an attack," said Liberation, which reported the woman's account was full of "gray areas" and "contradictions."

Surveillance cameras at the station where the gang reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and none of the alleged 20 witnesses had come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity.

Both France-Info radio and the television station LCI reported that the young woman had filed several complaints about violence and aggression in the past that never panned out. Neither provided sources, but LCI said she had filed six such complaints. Justice Minister Dominique Perben urged the public to be patient and wait for investigators to reach a conclusion.

"All the elements are being verified and screened," he said earlier Tuesday. "It is, therefore, essential to wait for this work to be finished before making up our minds one way or the other."

In a morning radio interview, government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope said that whether the woman's account proved true or not had little bearing on France's need to stem hate crimes.

"The explosion of the number of racist and anti-Semitic acts committed in our country in the last few years is a reality that we must combat," Cope told RTL radio.

The Interior Ministry released figures last week showing that hate crimes had spiked in the first half of the year. There were 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of 2004 — nearly as many as in all of last year, 593.

Racist attacks were up too: There were 95 attacks and 161 threats through June, compared to 232 total such crimes reported in 2003.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040713/ap_on_re_eu/france_anti_semitic_attack_13

Let the gloating begin, you bastard...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

Perhaps, but in that case it might be better to discuss it in another thread. I dont think youre gonna have a coherent discussion of a problem in a thread about a case where that problem didnt actually occur.

[Drake Tungsten]

On the plus-side, it's good to see that the French media was actually taking this case seriously until it became known that it was a hoax. Maybe things are getting better...

[KrazyHorse]

I'm not gloating because I really don't think that whether or not this one attack happened was really indicative of anything.

The fact is that there has been a recent increase of hate crimes both against Jews and Muslims in France (and in Canada, the US and, I'm sure, a number of other Western countries). 2 months ago a Jewish school a mile from my girlfriend's house was burned to the ground. However, it is very reassuring to me to see the unbelievably strong reaction it provoked. The Prime Minister of Canada visited the site, along with the Premier of Quebec and a number of other important officials. The major newspapers in the country all carried it as their lead story. Nobody is going to remain silent when members of our community are attacked for what race or religion they belong to.

In other words, to all those who carry out racially motivated crimes.

to the average citizens and politicians who will not stand for it in the US, Canada or France.