France!

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Drake:

"This isn't street violence. A woman and her 13-month old child were attacked on a train, in the suburbs, just because someone thought they were Jews. That never happens in America."

The above is an accurate statement as far as it goes. Maybe that misses the point, but the same is true for lots of statements on all sides on this forum.

Accurate? Accurate in the sense it has never happened-accurate in the sense it could not happen? Those two are different. We anti-semitic violence in this city- only 13 years ago there were the crown heights riots in NYC. You also left the parentheses section about it not happening in any other western state- thought Panag would be interested in that given his threads about belgium.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap



Accurate? Accurate in the sense it has never happened-accurate in the sense it could not happen? Those two are different. We anti-semitic violence in this city- only 13 years ago there were the crown heights riots in NYC. You also left the parentheses section about it not happening in any other western state- thought Panag would be interested in that given his threads about belgium.

Accurate in the sense it never happened. Lets get legalistic. Crown Heights riot did not take place on a train, was a riot and not a coldblooded attack by a small gang, etc. So yes its accurate.


If you want to say that it wasnt accurate in the larger sense - IE that hate crimes including murder, including an antisemitic murder DO happen here, I would suggest that it would only be fair to look at what Drake was responding to.

"Am I the only one who thinks it amusing to see an American condemning France because of the street violence in there?"

Drakes point - that while the US may have more street crime than France, this is in a different category from street crime, is essentially correct. VJ's point is wrong and misleading - more so than Drakes. Had VJ been pointing to the Matthew Shepard case, or the Crown Heights pogrom, it would have been different but he was not. In the context of the discussion Drakes point was perfectly reasonable - you may choose to respond to it sarcastically if you wish, but I thought it worth taking issue with your post.

[Spiffor]

I find it obvious Drake wouldn't have raised the issue if somthing like that had occured elsewhere than France.

However, the rise of antisemitic violence is very worrisome, and is a concern for our politicians.

Between 1997 and 2002, the Socialists in power believed that street violence and increasing communitarian hatred were a side-effect of unemployment. As such, they didn't deal with antisemitism directly, and downplayed the problem indeed.

But in 2002, Chirac and his team back in power understood it was really a specific problem, that had to be adressed specifically.
There are two schools of thought about antisemitism, one incarnated by Chirac, the other by Sarkozy.

Chirac believes antisemitism is a part of a general communitarian malaise in France. He seems to consider all forms of racism must be fought to fight against each one effectively.
Sarkozy, by his own admittance, doesn't "want to explain antisemitism, because it would be starting to excuse it". His policies as police minister was to increase police presence, and in particular to break with the Socialist's policy of policemen's discretion.

Sarkozy's policy were a short term success, as petty crimes and hate crimes reduced in 2003 (antisemitic violence reduced very strongly). However, even though the increased police presence adressed the "feeling of impunity" which was one of the causes of such criminality, it didn't adress the general malaise. This is a reason why petty crime and antisemitic violence are on the rise again.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I find it obvious Drake wouldn't have raised the issue if somthing like that had occured elsewhere than France.

a reason why petty crime and antisemitic violence are on the rise again.

The replacement of Sarkozy by De Villepin as Interior Minister?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The replacement of Sarkozy by De Villepin as Interior Minister?

Nope, because the police methods haven't changed, and De Villepin tries to get as much popularity from the job as possible.

It is simply the obvious biting in the ass: the only answer of the government to crime and hate crime, so far, have been increased police. It was useful at short term, since many petty criminals had no fear of the police, but it was bound to stop being useful quite quickly.

Especially when overall racism worsens, when life gets more difficult, etc.

The right is making exactly the same mistake as the left wrt crime and hate crime: they act on only one variable (the left on economic problems, the right on police problems), and aren't honest or pragmatic enough to try looking at the big picture.

[lord of the mark]

Another factoid

"The anxiety within the French Jewish community is palpable, and it can be measured by another set of statistics: Between 1999 and 2001, the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel averaged 1,173 per year; in 2002, it nearly doubled to 2,035 and has continued to climb.

In the first six months of 2004, the number was 685, but officials in Israel say they are planning for an influx of 500 this month. While Israel is happy to have the newcomers, leaders of the French Jewish community are disturbed.

"It's a catastrophe for France's image in the world, and it's destabilizing for the Jewish community in France," Drai said.

"If they are going to Israel for spiritual reasons, fine," said Jean-Pierre Allali, a member of the executive board of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France. "But if they are going to escape anti-Semitism, it's very bad."

Allali suggested that despite the increase, the number of Jews leaving France was not significant. "It's not a tidal wave. It's a very small minority," he said.

But Jean-Jacques Wahl, director of a Jewish educational foundation in France, said he sees many French Jews, especially younger ones, hedging their bets.

"Among young people, fewer are choosing professions like the law. Instead they are studying business or computers, because these skills are more transportable. For me that's the most important change," he said. "


I would note that while the economy has improved, conditions in Israel have continued to be difficult. I know of no signs of such growth of emigration to Israel from any other Western country.

[GePap]

Well, immigration from the US to Israel is higher than "normal" this year as well, re the NYT.

[Sandman]

That's some ripe cherry-picked statistics there.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Well, immigration from the US to Israel is higher than "normal" this year as well, re the NYT.

really, I havent seen that. If you have a link Id appreciate it.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Sandman
That's some ripe cherry-picked statistics there.

Indeed. Very entertaining though.

[Bereta_Eder]

You see the way this works is this: France and Israel have conflicting interests. Various lobbies of Israel WILL badmouth France wherever they are found in order to hurt her.

It's a sad state of affairs when they use the jewish tragedy in order to do this. Also makes it harder to see if and where and how much of a problem really exists. A disservice of humanity and service, as they see it, of national interests.

[Bereta_Eder]

of course this propaganda only works in countries like the US where let's face it, it just waits for things against France. Doesn't work in other parts of the world like Europe where such attempts by various israeli lobby groups have long time now become transparent.

not that any of this matters to the palestinians who live in utter poverty oppression and murder or the israelis who get killed in suicide bombings and live a life with no feeling of security.

[KrazyHorse]

And, of course, there start to be doubts about the woman's story. I didn't want to say anything about my suspicions, given the awful nature of the attack (if it happened) but things did not seem to me to add up.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/07/12/france.attack.ap/index.html

Surveillance cameras at the station where the culprits reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and no witnesses have come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity.

[KrazyHorse]

In fact, one of the major signs that an assault has been faked (if the victim is a woman) is the accusation that the assaulter drew things on her.

In actuality this almost never happens (in terms of criminal behaviour), but is often done by a false accuser.

Not to say that this is an ironclad demonstration of falsehood, but it is one thing which raised red flags with me.

[Combat Ingrid]

There was a case in Sweden some years ago, when a bunch of nazis assaulted a politically active girl (social democrat, IIRC) and cut a swastika in her forehead with a razor blade. So it does happen