So, have YOU seen "Fahrenheit 9/11"?

[Boris Godunov]

Moore's asserting that the Lockheed weapons-making business in Littleton has fostered an atmosphere of condoned violence which made it more possible for those kids to do what they did. Sounds to me like the same line of thought that violent video games or music with violent lyrics influences such behavior. If you accept the latter as possible, then I don't see how you can reject the former as possible.

Regardless, the point is that Moore is making a conclusion based on the facts presented. You may disagree with the conclusion, but accusing him of "lying" in this case is preposterous and is, in itself, false. He hasn't presented false information, merely given his spin on what he sees. That's not remotely libel.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Verto

Fight the good fight against the Left's Limbaugh (and they seem to defend like the far right does with Limbaugh as well )

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Verto
Is he not trying to say that Lockheed makes weapons of "mass killing"?

They do.

Does he not try to make the connection that, because Lockheed made those "weapons", Columbine occurred?

No, he's pointing out the irony of a culture in which warfare and killing is the norm that gets all crazy about two kids going on a rampage. The very title of the film is part of that irony. The two murderers went bowling the in the monring, right before they went to the school and began killing. No one ever blamed bowling for making these kids murderers, yet Marilyn Manson (interviewed in the film), the video game Doom, etc. were all blamed. No one pointed to the killing our government was doing in Yugoslavia at the very moment those kids were running around Columbine.

I realize irony may sometimes be too subtle for right-wingers, but if you'd seen the movie, you'd realize he wasn't blaming Lockheed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Verto

Fight the good fight against the Left's Limbaugh (and they seem to defend like the far right does with Limbaugh as well )

[General Ludd]

Lot's of double posts.

[GePap]

I wonder if you have been reading the thread Imran...

[Verto]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

I realize irony may sometimes be too subtle for right-wingers, but if you'd seen the movie, you'd realize he wasn't blaming Lockheed.

You're right. I haven't seen the movie. I've been lying this whole time.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Verto
You're right. I haven't seen the movie. I've been lying this whole time.

Either that, or you have blatantly misrepresented what you've seen in the movie to present a false notion that Moore somehow lied about Lockheed Martin, which he didn't, and also a clear misrepresentation of what Moore was saying in the film. So you ain't smelling pretty no matter how you slice it.

[Verto]

No one pointed to the killing our government was doing in Yugoslavia at the very moment those kids were running around Columbine.

I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Verto
I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

Okay, apparently it was too subtle for you.

So do you think it was Marilyn Manson who inspired those kids to go killing? Or was it playing Doom and where baclk trenchcoats?

If you think Moore was trying to establish a direct correlation between Lockheed and Columbine, you aren't as clever as I give you credit for.



BTW, the year, Yugoslavia was on the news for at least six months, seeing as we were bombing it!

[Verto]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Either that, or you have blatantly misrepresented what you've seen in the movie to present a false notion that Moore somehow lied about Lockheed Martin, which he didn't, and also a clear misrepresentation of what Moore was saying in the film. So you ain't smelling pretty no matter how you slice it.

I just don't accept the idea that, because Lockheed made missiles in the 50s-80s, and because they help put satellites(that do direct missiles),

Moore: "So you don't think our kids say to themselves, well gee, dad goes off to the factory every day and, you know, he built missiles. These were weapons of mass destruction. What's the difference between that mass destruction and the mass destruction over at Columbine High School?"

Rockets that put military satellites into space, are not missils, nor are they weapons of mass destruction.

Satellites that are used to direct cruise missiles are not weapons of mass destruction.

Unless Moore meant to say, "well gee, dad goees off to the factory every and, you know, he built missiles 20 years ago before I was born.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Verto

No one pointed to the killing our government was doing in Yugoslavia at the very moment those kids were running around Columbine.

I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

Man, you really don't have a clue what either Moore or chegitz were saying.

Take a breather, read the post slooooowly and keep it all in context.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I wonder if you have been reading the thread Imran

Yeah, I did. I actually did see that part with Moore and Lockheed-Martin and I agree with Verto's take. I don't think he was referring to nukes in particular, but I think MM was trying to link of L-M making weapons with Columbine in some very wierd way.

[Verto]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Verto
I doubt they even knew where Yugoslavia was.

Okay, apparently it was too subtle for you.

So do you think it was Marilyn Manson who inpired those kids to go killing? Or was it playing Doom and where baclk trenchcoats?

I refuse to blame Marilyn Manson, or DOOM, for their actions. I would say it is far more likely that they started listening to Manson, and dressing in trench coats, etc in the first place because of things that were happening to them at school.

And on a side note, one of the parts in BfC that actually stood out was when he was interviewing Manson, and asked what he would say to them, if he could. And Manson replied along the lines of "I wouldn't say anything. I would just listen to what they had to say."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I wonder if you have been reading the thread Imran

I think MM was trying to link of L-M making weapons with Columbine in some very wierd way.

He was deliberately trying to make an absurd point, in order to point out the absurdity of blaming a goth rocker or a video game. He was at the same time pointing out that we are a violent and warlike society, and that a culture of violence (for which Lockheed is the representitive) is going to breed violence in its children.

But he never makes clear where the culture of violence comes from. He goes through and trashes the myths of the right and the left as to why we have so much violence. I did not come away from that movie thinking that Moore had an answer other than we should treat each other with dignity and respect.