"Isn't she a little young?"

[Elok]

Just out of curiosity, has anybody here ever met a twelve-year-old girl who seemed intellectually and emotionally prepared to make informed decisions like an adult? I haven't. And wanting to screw some guy who can't or won't get women his own age isn't a sign of good judgment to me.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Kucinich
Only over half?

Well...

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Wouldn't the best guide regarding the determination of the legal age of consent be the general historical experience with the outcome of sexual activity at the age groups in question? As I said above, the outcome of a 12 year old's pregnancy are generally pretty dismal, for the girl, the girl's parents, and the baby. Frankly, in my experience this is pretty much true up through the teens. When a teenaged girl has a baby almost always everyone involved suffers, so why let it happen? I'd be interested to learn what the results are in other countries, like the Netherlands. In the Netherlands what generally happens to young teens (13 to 16) who have babies in terms of finishing school, career, future income, and mental health in comparison with other girls? What happens to their babies in terms of placement, scholastic performance, trouble with the law, and etc?

Once again Doc brings real world wisdom and "DUH!" common sense to the table.

[Saint Marcus]

In the Netherlands what generally happens to young teens (13 to 16) who have babies in terms of finishing school, career, future income, and mental health in comparison with other girls?

It usually isn't for the best, indeed. But...teenage pregnancy rates in Holland are 9(!!!) times smaller (per 100,000ppl), despite having an age of concent 6 years below that of the US. You tell me, what is more effective?

[Urban Ranger]

Knowledge of contraceptives work wonders.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


It usually isn't for the best, indeed. But...teenage pregnancy rates in Holland are 9(!!!) times smaller (per 100,000ppl), despite having an age of concent 6 years below that of the US. You tell me, what is more effective?

Historically hasn't the social culture of the Netherlands tended to be rather puritanical?

[Saint Marcus]

Historically hasn't the social culture of the Netherlands tended to be rather puritanical?

Yes, that is correct. Blame it on Calvinism. Right up until the 1960s our society was a repressed one. Things changed from the late 60s/early 70s, and pretty much stayed that way till today. Our famous "tolerance" mainly stems from more from practicality (and business sense) than from idealogy. Doesn't mean we like certain behaviour though.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Knowledge of contraceptives work wonders.

everyone knows about cotraceptives here in mid school

and all highschools that I know of hand out comdoms (some mid schools also)

knowledge is not the issue

it is dumb people like my sister who just gets pregnant again and again

Jon miller

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Historically hasn't the social culture of the Netherlands tended to be rather puritanical?

Hasn't that of the US?

[Drogue]

As pointed out by Saint Marcus, even with an age of consent of 12, fewer teenagers get pregnant than the US. Hence the argument that teenage pregnancy is bad isn't an argument for a high age of consent, since it seems to have the opposite effect. There are other factors at work, of course, but to explain the whole 9 times?

Also, having an age of consent of 18 must make it harder for those under 18 who get pregnant to get help and make decisions, when it shows they've broken the law.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


It usually isn't for the best, indeed. But...teenage pregnancy rates in Holland are 9(!!!) times smaller (per 100,000ppl), despite having an age of concent 6 years below that of the US. You tell me, what is more effective?

We've gone over this with drugs and guns. Making everything legal isn't going to solve anything in the U.S. It's a culture thing.

[Whaleboy]

If what we should do as individuals is not what the law should be, that requires some justification. Usually the law reflects and reinforces behaviour that we believe we should do.

I disagree, but I'm a libertarian not a moral-absolutist. The law is a simple system of saying what is acceptable in societies eyes, not a system of what is right in the individual's eyes.

Wouldn't the best guide regarding the determination of the legal age of consent be the general historical experience with the outcome of sexual activity at the age groups in question?

No, but ideally that should form part of the individuals decision in this regard, not their allowance to make such a decision. I don't think the reasons as to why "one" shouldn't are sufficient in the context of a libertarian looking for a consistent legal position to say "all" mustn't.

[chequita guevara]

It's galls me to say this, but for once, Diss is actually correct. Our culture is very different from Europe's. We place heavy stress on individualism as opposed to community, instant gratification over long term goals, and things over relationships. Without a culture shift, we can't handle that kind of freedom. On the other hand, without freedom, we'll never have a culture shift. The problems are worst in the most culturally repressive parts of America, after all. Still, no one's going to say we should sacrifice a generation or two of kids in order to have better great-grandkids.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Wouldn't the best guide regarding the determination of the legal age of consent be the general historical experience with the outcome of sexual activity at the age groups in question?

Not really-- rich pregnant 12 year olds will do better than dirt poor 16 year olds on average-- plus its likely that much fewer of the rich will get pregnant due to access to better information and contraception

Outcomes for a person depends much much more on education, intelligence, family support than it does age.

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
As I said above, the outcome of a 12 year old's pregnancy are generally pretty dismal, for the girl, the girl's parents, and the baby. Frankly, in my experience this is pretty much true up through the teens. When a teenaged girl has a baby almost always everyone involved suffers, so why let it happen?

Two points.

1. The same may be true of 19 year olds that get pregnant as well. heck we could probably find that sexual contact before age 25 has more negative consequences than good. Do we say no one can consent under age 25?

2. You seem focused on pregnancy but that can happen when two 13 year olds get together. I have no statistics to back me up but I would think that the chance of pregnancy eould be higher when two 13 year olds get together ( which would not be illegal under most consent laws) than in the typical predator situation where the predator would not want a pregnancy to raise the probability of detection

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
When a teenaged girl has a baby almost always everyone involved suffers, so why let it happen?

You could change "teenaged girl" to "impoverished person", would your sentence still hold?

You are focused on outcomes for the pregnant teen but unless you go sexist and define consent laws in a unigender type of way, the law must either say that both commit a crime or no one does, when two 13 year olds get together. A law on this would be inneffective since what 13 year old boy and girl "in love" are going to care about the consequences? They don't care about ruining their lives with a pregnancy so why would they care that they get a stint in juvy?


Sorry Dr Strangelove . . . While I concurr that teen pregnancy is a huge problem, do you really think making sex illegal for teens will solve it? I don't.

Consent laws are about protecting those that are immature from those who are "old enough to know better". Thats why the only system that makes sense is one with a chosen age limit and a range of acceptable ages around the age of the victim.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Drogue
As pointed out by Saint Marcus, even with an age of consent of 12, fewer teenagers get pregnant than the US. Hence the argument that teenage pregnancy is bad isn't an argument for a high age of consent, since it seems to have the opposite effect. There are other factors at work, of course, but to explain the whole 9 times?

Correlation != causation. I believe the Netherlands have higher taxes than the US - clearly those must be the reason