"Isn't she a little young?"

[Kuciwalker]

You are focused on outcomes for the pregnant teen but unless you go sexist and define consent laws in a unigender type of way, the law must either say that both commit a crime or no one does, when two 13 year olds get together. A law on this would be inneffective since what 13 year old boy and girl "in love" are going to care about the consequences? They don't care about ruining their lives with a pregnancy so why would they care that they get a stint in juvy?

I think you misunderstand - if two people of the same age have sex, and it's consentual, neither is guilty. Otherwise, only the older one is guilty, and only if the age difference is a certain amount (and of course only if one of the parties is underage), which varies from state to state.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Hasn't that of the US?

Nope, we're populated by the tired, the poor, the huddled masses longing to be free - so that they can own slaves and steal Indian land. Only a small fraction of Americans can claim a Puritan heritage, and I'm not one of them.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kucinich

You are focused on outcomes for the pregnant teen but unless you go sexist and define consent laws in a unigender type of way, the law must either say that both commit a crime or no one does, when two 13 year olds get together. A law on this would be inneffective since what 13 year old boy and girl "in love" are going to care about the consequences? They don't care about ruining their lives with a pregnancy so why would they care that they get a stint in juvy?

I think you misunderstand - if two people of the same age have sex, and it's consentual, neither is guilty. Otherwise, only the older one is guilty, and only if the age difference is a certain amount (and of course only if one of the parties is underage), which varies from state to state.

I don't believe I did misunderstand. My whole point was that since teens having sex with other similaraged teens would cause the bulk of pregnancies, of what use is the consent age in dealing with the teen pregnancy issue??

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Kucinich
I think you misunderstand - if two people of the same age have sex, and it's consentual, neither is guilty. Otherwise, only the older one is guilty, and only if the age difference is a certain amount (and of course only if one of the parties is underage), which varies from state to state.

That's not always true. I've known of cases locally in which a teenaged boy spent time in juvie hall for knocking up a girl approximately his same age (14 - 13). I've known other cases in which an older boy (17) got off scot free for making a 13 year old a mother. Juvenile law in some places gives so much leeway to judges that there is no consistency. You could look at that the other way and say that juvenile law is flexible enough to allow justice to be individually tailored to the circumstances.

[Whaleboy]

I think one thing is important to point out. In my observation, locking up teenagers who sleep with other teenagers isn't going to help anyone, least of all those concerned, who's lives are being ruined for the sake of half an hour and too much vodka. As for paedophiles proper, I'd say they have some kind of mental illness that requires therapy as opposed to penal correctitude. They won't have any cognitive malfunctions locked or beaten out of them, and if they are released, public is at risk (except more so because of possibility of changed identity) and if they remain locked up, they are taking up precious space and resources that should be spent on incarcerating Muslims who have insufficient evidence against their name to prove a crime but the government doesn't like the look of . I don't think punitive revenge and blanket, useless laws that get flouted regardless are going to address the issue. We need to get back to basics, the fundamental ethical (not moral), humanistic, medical and philosophical concerns at the centre of this issue, analyse it and resolve, not operate upon a principle of complacency offset by moralistic witch-hunts and politicians prostituting themselves for the votes of simplistic, defense men and women who are all too ready to jump on the nearest available bandwagon for fear of thinking or being seen to advocate paedophilia.

[Saint Marcus]

We've gone over this with drugs and guns. Making everything legal isn't going to solve anything in the U.S. It's a culture thing.

So you are saying that Americans are less responsable than Dutchmen?

Correlation != causation. I believe the Netherlands have higher taxes than the US - clearly those must be the reason

please. what do you think is the reason we have a so much lower teenage pregnancy rate? Of course lowering the age of concent isn't the sole answer, but by decriminalising (or de-immoralising) teens having sex, and educating them on the issue and by talking openly to them about it, things will drastically improve.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Drogue

Even the 15 year old boy? Or the 18 year old boy? Does it make it so much worse when the bloke is older, apart from the simple disgust factor, is there a reason? And why can't a 14 year old decide for herself? If she's as mature as most 14 year olds seem to be nowadays, I think she's perfectly capable to decide for herself when she wants to have sex. Personally, I'd consider murder worse than sex with a teenager.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Simply, kids at 13-14 simply don't have the ability to discern the consequences of the actions that biology has equipped them (however recently) for. Studies of much older teenagers show that they really only start catching on around 18-19, ie when their brains finally stop developing and take their adult form. This is why we have laws that make it illegal for minors to form contracts among many other things. Simply put, they are impulsive and make many often serious or even deadly errors in situations where restraint is called for. It isn't simply a case of lack of experience, though the combination often compounds the problem.

A lot of kids seem like they know what they are doing I'll grant you. These kids fall into two general categories. Category one is kids who have received strong and credible instruction in how to behave / succeed in life from their parents or other people who they admire. These children are more resistent to stupidity simply because someone they trust and admire would disapprove. They may or may not make the right decision in circumstances where their training has left them ill-prepared. Of course some of these children are greatly impacted by adults whose advice is poor at best, but experience will usually temper this problem over time.

The second category of children who seem to know what they are about are those who have stepped up into the role of adults. This usually happens due to an adult sized hole in their own family (actual or effectual) which needs to be filled by someone, and they have either voluntarily or not so voluntarily filled the void. These children talk the talk very well, and often have an impressive collection of adult software. Unfortunately they still have the child's hardware. Many of these children aggressively seek to grow up as fast as they can, including seeking out sexual encounters as a means of further establishing themselves as adults in order to hurry themselves through childhood as fast as they can go. They don't understand developmental psycholgy or physiology and consider the process of maturing as simply a to do list, and thus the implications for their long term mental and developmental health. This is why we hold the adult in the situation accountable. The risks for them are only legal, and they should have a better handle on the situation and their own behavior than the child.

One final note, I'll bet that a lot of these pregnant girls end up in the second category via having been molested by their fathers or more likely stepfathers / mom's boyfriend, or were allowed to be molested by their similarly f-ed up and seemingly blind guardians.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Those who want to hit it with adolecents need to be hit in the face.

In this instance I don't really care what people want to do, only what they do matters. Hell, I think a lot of 16 year old girls are cute. If I met a woman my age who looked like that I'd be a happy camper. What I don't find sexually attractive is the fact that they are 16!

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Drogue

And looksa lot older than she is. Which is another point. if she lies about her age, are you responsible? If a 14 year old girl, who looks old enough to get into clubs/bars (very common here) lies about her age and sleeps with someone, has he broken a law? He didn't think she was underage, she lied to get him into bed, it's her deception. What would be the outcome?

How was I supposed to know she was 12? She swore to me that she was 13!

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Elok
Just out of curiosity, has anybody here ever met a twelve-year-old girl who seemed intellectually and emotionally prepared to make informed decisions like an adult? I haven't. And wanting to screw some guy who can't or won't get women his own age isn't a sign of good judgment to me.

No. I have seen a few girls who were far younger than they looked, but most of them assisted the illusion by remaining quiet for the most part.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Flubber

I don't believe I did misunderstand. My whole point was that since teens having sex with other similaraged teens would cause the bulk of pregnancies, of what use is the consent age in dealing with the teen pregnancy issue??

I don't think this is they case in Virginia amongst 13-14 year olds, and hence this whole thread.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Kucinich
Correlation != causation. I believe the Netherlands have higher taxes than the US - clearly those must be the reason

I never claimed it was What I claimed was ha a figure like that dismisses much of the idea that a higher age of consent leads to lower teenage pregnancy rates. Many people seemed to be trying to argue that teenage pregnancies being bad is a reason for a high age of consent, and I was pointing out that there is no evidence to suggest that a high age of consent leads to lower teenage pregnancies, and indeed, there was a correlation in the opposite direction.

Teenage pregnancies are bad, but raising the age of consent won't help that, education will. The age of consent should be as it sounds, the age at which someone is capable of consenting. If someone can legally sign a form choosing where to go to college, a decision that requires much thought and planning, then why aren't they capable of choosing whether or not to have sex? I think the latter takes much less thought, and generally is a much less important decision.

IMHO, most 14 year olds can decide whether or not they are ready for sex, so I see no reason why the state should take that decision away from them. I think they can decide for themselves better than the state can with blanket legislature.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
So you are saying that Americans are less responsable than Dutchmen?

Yes

please. what do you think is the reason we have a so much lower teenage pregnancy rate? Of course lowering the age of concent isn't the sole answer, but by decriminalising (or de-immoralising) teens having sex, and educating them on the issue and by talking openly to them about it, things will drastically improve.

As Diss said, this is plainly untrue. We've been over it with drugs and guns, and it isn't the fact that it's illegal that makes it so prevalent, not by a long shot.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Drogue
I never claimed it was What I claimed was ha a figure like that dismisses much of the idea that a higher age of consent leads to lower teenage pregnancy rates.

Nope, because it doesn't control for other elements at all. It's a completely unscientific claim, yours.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


So you are saying that Americans are less responsable than Dutchmen?

No, what he is saying is that we basically live in a society where we are bombarded by messages that:

MORE = BETTER.

In a nutshell, the more you have, the bigger house you own, the bigger SUV you drive, and the more you consume, is the pinnacle of achievement and acceptance.

Now, is throwing legal drugs, and unfettered access to guns, into this mix a wise thing to do? He's a knucklehead, but for once I agree with him.

please. what do you think is the reason we have a so much lower teenage pregnancy rate? Of course lowering the age of concent isn't the sole answer, but by decriminalising (or de-immoralising) teens having sex, and educating them on the issue and by talking openly to them about it, things will drastically improve.

The differences between the societies are so marked that it's impossible to say if things would improve if the same policies were applied here. Teen pregnancies and STD rates among minorities are through the roof, and it's hard to say that you can "plug in" certain policies and expect good results. And again, all teens are bombarded by messages that sex is all cool and all good, and I'm skeptical that such policies would have a marked effect either way.