No Child Left Behind in Philly School District

[Odin]

Another problem is that being smart in the US is not "cool" so kids, especially in the inner city, suck at school intentionally to keep from being teased or bullied. One of the sources of this is all the children's TV shows that show school as being "uncool" (think of the Simpsons).

[Japher]

Odin, that is what I was trying to get at. They see sports as the only "cool" thing about school, and if you suk at sports you suk at everything... It's a poor sociatal mentality.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Kucinich

And when was this...?

the last 6 years. I graduated from HS on May 28th.

[Nubclear]

How much more basic can you get?

Quite a bit more, actually

It increases as quickly as there are enough students to support the faster curriculum.

I'm sorry. I didn't think you'd take offense to that.

It increases as quickly as there are enough students to support the faster curriculum.

Hardly needed. Students will adapt...Remember, I'm going under the assumption that most of the students are no longer in schoo;.

Ah, so you do think that Americans are less informed... do you have ANY evidence to back that up? Maybe test scores differ slightly, but given that we're still the world leader in scientific research certainly says something about the utility of those.

Other than the statistical information you've already seen from the various organisations, I only have my personal experiences ot back it up.
And please Kucinich, don't feign ignorance. We both very well know that many educated peoples go FROM other nations TO the US. Hardly reflects on the US education system.

Swimming isn't a "class", it's a "sport". You sign up for it after school.

I would hope you would not have to play semantics.
However, I will indulge you and rephrase:

I never said that. However, which do *you* think would help advance anyones knowledge of physics more:
Swimming or a physics class?

You've observed... Utah?

And many other states. Utah is not the only place I've lived in.

Through your kids?

Unlike many American parents, I'm involved in my childs life. Often times I will go to the school to observe what is being taught, to see what else I need to teach in order to give my children the best education they can get

Can you provide any evidence besides test scores, which, as I've mentioned, are worthless?

And what other types of evidence do you want?
Also, please do refresh my memory again: Why are test scores worthless?

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/2003026.pdf

There is no ideal - that would imply some sort of cap.

Every organisation which aspires to do anything requires an ideal to attempt to reach, they do not just float on aimlessly. *Ideally*, an education system would teach everything it needed to each with 100% efficency. Children would always score 100% on any test they are given, etc etc.

more america-bashing from someone who has essentially ZERO personal knowledge of the system

I will admit that, not having gone through the US education system I will know less of it than you would. However, it does not take a knowledge of the US education system to assess the results of it.

Anecdotal, subjective evidence that's highly likely to be heavily skewed and further compounded by the simple fact that you remember things better that reinforce your preconceptions?

If such were true, I'd be saying that American children were geniuses, best education system in the world.
I came to the US with high expectations...Probably one of worst mistakes of my life.

What flag have I been waving?

....

We do.

How scary.

Given the emphasis placed on getting into college, I'd say you're dead wrong.

I'd say Odin put it best:

Another problem is that being smart in the US is not "cool" so kids, especially in the inner city, suck at school intentionally to keep from being teased or bullied. One of the sources of this is all the children's TV shows that show school as being "uncool" (think of the Simpsons).

Nope, it's because Asian parents often push their children extremely hard, often beyond what could be considered useful or sane.

And you lecture me about how I should not speak without experience...
Yes, Asian parents do push their children hard, and in the end it brings good results.
Just because many American parents think that letting their child do whatever they wish to do is a good thing hardly means that it is.

What does this have to do with our education system?

If intelligence is not stressed and, is infact, demoted in American society, then your education system will not function regardless, in relation to these children.

It's called a 504 plan.

My son has inherited many of my anxiety disorders, and he now requires a 504 plan.
I'd hardly say they've been helpful The school is not flexible when it comes to much of anything. They are ideologically driven, and are hardly serving my childs best interest.
All thats really required of them is to file the 504. If the school administrators believe that doing something would not be in the best interest of the child, they are not forced to do it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Skywalker:

We write games

A waste of time, when they are good games to download.

That's in no way a perk... and in no way should "community work" qualify one for a high school diploma. And wrt a paper, certainly that's a good thing (my school requires that one do a college-level research project in one of various labs for the TJ diploma), but of course you should have to take those courses as well.

Why shouldn't 150 hours of community work count towards your HS degree? You learn far more by volunteering than sitting in a career and personal planning class.

You mean your system wasn't voluntary?

The students culled themselves, when they had a taste of the workload.

Anyway, TJ is an effective school because of the students there. Obviously, then, it would no longer be NEARLY as effective if you let ANY students in.

I say you learn more if the classes allow everybody to get in, at least at the start.

Not really, as the material is mostly (or should be mostly) related to actual information you're learning. Two birds with one stone - you learn about interpretation of various themes in the Aeneid (for example), and you learn effective techniques for discussion.

More interest is in open discussion, and then taking the lessons you learn there into classroom topics. Much more interest.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think what Space said is quite enlightening. We have magnet schools for the smart/gifted, for the arts, for the athletics... why not for vocations, or for those things that interest kids... At least it would give the 'normal' kids a way to feel special, and IMO that is the problem; a mentality that says I am average, and the average is so low I can stop trying now.

Yep, that's what I was hoping someone would pick up.

There is no use in making an exclusive system for the top while neglecting everyone else. That is a tremendous waste of resources.

[Kuciwalker]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

Quite a bit more, actually

So you're simultaneously complaining that the schools aren't teaching enough and are teaching too much?

I'm sorry. I didn't think you'd take offense to that.

Hardly needed. Students will adapt...Remember, I'm going under the assumption that most of the students are no longer in schoo;.

Students will adapt to what?

The best example of what I'm talking about is math (as it's much more difficult to quantify other knowledge). As students are trained in more math at earlier ages, they take more advanced math at each grade. It's a gradual process, and has to be - it's impossible to take someone who's only had one year of algebra and suddenly put them in calculus (at least, it's impossible to do this over the entire system). And this gradual change is already occuring.

Other than the statistical information you've already seen from the various organisations, I only have my personal experiences ot back it up.

As I've said before, your personal experiences are worthless as argument. How old are you? When were you last in a public high school? And wrt your children, have they been educated anywhere but Utah?

And please Kucinich, don't feign ignorance. We both very well know that many educated peoples go FROM other nations TO the US. Hardly reflects on the US education system.

And this is why the thing about how Asian students are always so much more driven is bunk - because a vastly disproportionate number of immigrants to the US from those countries are from the wealthy and intellectual elite, wherease it's the opposite for, say, Hispanic immigrants.

I would hope you would not have to play semantics.
However, I will indulge you and rephrase:

[qI never said that. However, which do *you* think would help advance anyones knowledge of physics more:
Swimming or a physics class?[/q]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. To demand that every single second of time in or near a school facility - since sports are extracurricular, you can't even argue that it's during school hours - be devoted to academics. That makes schools no more than a factory to turn out millions of mindless drones. Anyway, it's not even using a school facility, usually - most practices and meets are held at local recreation facilities run by the county.

And many other states. Utah is not the only place I've lived in.

It's the only place your children have been educated in, right? At least, recently?

Unlike many American parents, I'm involved in my childs life.

Again, illustrative of why your reasoning is flawed - you base it on totally unfounded assumptions like this.

And what other types of evidence do you want?
Also, please do refresh my memory again: Why are test scores worthless?

Because they're obvioulsy disjointed from reality.

Every organisation which aspires to do anything requires an ideal to attempt to reach, they do not just float on aimlessly. *Ideally*, an education system would teach everything it needed to each with 100% efficency. Children would always score 100% on any test they are given, etc etc.

That's not an ideal, that's just absurdity. An education system is supposed to teach students what they can learn, not what it wishes they could learn.

I will admit that, not having gone through the US education system I will know less of it than you would. However, it does not take a knowledge of the US education system to assess the results of it.

What results?

If such were true, I'd be saying that American children were geniuses, best education system in the world.
I came to the US with high expectations...Probably one of worst mistakes of my life.

Maybe you'd have skewed it in your mind the other way... but it's still anecdotal evidence from a small, skewed sample group.

Another problem is that being smart in the US is not "cool" so kids, especially in the inner city, suck at school intentionally to keep from being teased or bullied. One of the sources of this is all the children's TV shows that show school as being "uncool" (think of the Simpsons).

Any evidence of this not being true in large part anywhere else? In fact, it's not particularly true here. I've never encountered any disdain for intelligence - though plenty for arguing with the teacher

Nope, it's because Asian parents often push their children extremely hard, often beyond what could be considered useful or sane.

And you lecture me about how I should not speak without experience...

There are fifty bazillion Asians at my school, of the exact type you talk about. Every single one of them agrees with me here.

My son has inherited many of my anxiety disorders, and he now requires a 504 plan.
I'd hardly say they've been helpful The school is not flexible when it comes to much of anything. They are ideologically driven, and are hardly serving my childs best interest.

Strange, I've seen the opposite in my experience. The schools tend to bend over backwards to go along with 504's.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
A waste of time, when they are good games to download.

Fun though

Why shouldn't 150 hours of community work count towards your HS degree? You learn far more by volunteering than sitting in a career and personal planning class.

What career and personal planning class? And what, pray tell, do you learn volunteering that most people don't usually learn with a summer job?

The students culled themselves, when they had a taste of the workload.

That's what's supposed to happen.

I say you learn more if the classes allow everybody to get in, at least at the start.

OK then, but if you can't keep up you drop down.

More interest is in open discussion, and then taking the lessons you learn there into classroom topics. Much more interest.

Huh?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Japher
I think what Space said is quite enlightening. We have magnet schools for the smart/gifted, for the arts, for the athletics... why not for vocations, or for those things that interest kids... At least it would give the 'normal' kids a way to feel special, and IMO that is the problem; a mentality that says I am average, and the average is so low I can stop trying now.

It's called a vocational or technical school. They exist already. They're bigger in Europe than over here, though.

[Space05us]

Direction exactly how?

What are you doing in high school? Really what are you accomplishing in that cramped building that you couldnt do on your own?

That sounds a lot more like just general apathy than anything connecting to education.

not so much apathy as depression because all you do in school all day long is sit in a hard plastic chair waiting for everyone else in the class to catch up with you. Even the 'dumb' ones because the teachers have to be fair and give as much time as is necessary. Then, even if there's literally nothing else to do for the last half the day you still have to sit there, you cant go outside, you cant run around, all you can do is sit.

Kind of like when you crowd mice you know? You just have to sit and wait, and try not to snap.

Geometry?!

In ten years tell me how often you use advanced level math. Besides most people hate math and would sooner stick with 2+2, so why force them to learn things they dont want to?

Of course attendence should be kept. The point of having school in the first place is for you to be there.

No, the point of having school in the first place is to provide people with a place to learn. The way it is now is like a prison.

The biggest problem with this wonderful recounting of high school experiences is... none of you are in high school

I was in High School just this last school year.

It's called a vocational or technical school. They exist already.

There obviously arent enough of them.

[Nubclear]

So you're simultaneously complaining that the schools aren't teaching enough and are teaching too much?

Yes. They are attempting to teach too much to those who do ont want to learn and not teaching enough to those who do.

The best example of what I'm talking about is math

I will agree here. However, history, English, other subjects are not like math because they do not have a precisely logical structure which makes them more flexible.

How old are you?

A lot older than you.

When were you last in a public high school?

.....I have already admitted my experience with the system is low. Yet you yourself say my experience is worthless: Thus your trying to go against your own argumentation

And wrt your children, have they been educated anywhere but Utah?

Yes

And this is why the thing about how Asian students are always so much more driven is bunk - because a vastly disproportionate number of immigrants to the US from those countries are from the wealthy and intellectual elite, wherease it's the opposite for, say, Hispanic immigrants.

Their parents may be as such, but the children are not. Just because you are born into an "intellectually elite" family hardly means you will become intellectual.
Wealth has very little to do with this, or else America would be an intellectual paradise.

Tell me Kucinich: Have you ever been to Asia?

That makes schools no more than a factory to turn out millions of mindless drones.

As opposed to now, where it turns out millions of...mindless drones?

Anyway, it's not even using a school facility, usually - most practices and meets are held at local recreation facilities run by the county.

OK then, its fine. I'm just saying money shouldn't be taken away from academics to fund extracurricular.

At least, recently?

With this in there, I can't answer your question. Define "recently"

Again, illustrative of why your reasoning is flawed - you base it on totally unfounded assumptions like this.

You are obviously either brainwashed or trolling on this issue.

"No! The education system is fine. More than fine! Everything is going well! There are no broken families in America! America is not complacent!"

Because they're obvioulsy disjointed from reality.

Then logically prove how their obviously "disjointed" from reality

That's not an ideal, that's just absurdity. An education system is supposed to teach students what they can learn, not what it wishes they could learn.

In an *ideal* system....

I've never encountered any disdain for intelligence - though plenty for arguing with the teacher

But, Sky, as you've stated on numerous occasions, personal experiences are worthless

There are fifty bazillion Asians at my school, of the exact type you talk about.

Yes. The children tend not to like it, because it places pressure on them.
As opposed to American families, which dont have that pressure so much.

Also...why would you even ask if you consider their results to be "skewed" because they are a part of the "intellectual elite"?

Strange, I've seen the opposite in my experience.

[Kuciwalker]

What are you doing in high school? Really what are you accomplishing in that cramped building that you couldnt do on your own?

Ah, you meant as in teaching.

not so much apathy as depression because all you do in school all day long is sit in a hard plastic chair waiting for everyone else in the class to catch up with you.

Or try and get into the gifted program...

In ten years tell me how often you use advanced level math.

Probably a lot - in ten years I'll probably be working on or done with my doctorate

Besides most people hate math and would sooner stick with 2+2, so why force them to learn things they dont want to?

Taxes. Actually understanding statistics.

No, the point of having school in the first place is to provide people with a place to learn. The way it is now is like a prison.

You can't learn without being there.

The biggest problem with this wonderful recounting of high school experiences is... none of you are in high school

I was in High School just this last school year.

Where? How many different systems have you been in?

It's called a vocational or technical school. They exist already.

There obviously arent enough of them.

As I said, they're bigger in Europe.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

So you're simultaneously complaining that the schools aren't teaching enough and are teaching too much?

Yes. They are attempting to teach too much to those who do ont want to learn and not teaching enough to those who do.

I'd disagree on both - they certainly taught me plenty (though I learned most math from my dad, until I switched INTO Tennessee public schools from a private school ), and there's virtually nothing besides maybe foreign languages that I'd say isn't important in the basic curriculum.

I will agree here. However, history, English, other subjects are not like math because they do not have a precisely logical structure which makes them more flexible.

Yes, I was just using it because it's easier to explain that way. A similar thing is happening is other subjects, though more slowly of course due to the same reason it's a difficult-to-explain example.

A lot older than you.

Exactly

.....I have already admitted my experience with the system is low. Yet you yourself say my experience is worthless: Thus your trying to go against your own argumentation

What experience you have is not current.

Yes

Where?

Their parents may be as such, but the children are not. Just because you are born into an "intellectually elite" family hardly means you will become intellectual.

Yes it does... parents with a high education tend to make their children value education as well.

Wealth has very little to do with this, or else America would be an intellectual paradise.

It's all relative. The elite are who they are in large part because of passed-down values of education and intelligence (as well as inherited ability).

Tell me Kucinich: Have you ever been to Asia?

What's that have to do with me destroying the argument? I'm not making the counter-claim, I'm just explaining why the reasons for the original claim are bunk.

As opposed to now, where it turns out millions of...mindless drones?

Americans are mindless drones? (no)

OK then, its fine. I'm just saying money shouldn't be taken away from academics to fund extracurricular.

It isn't, except in the sense that there is only so much money, so spending some on extracurriculars depletes the pool available to spend on education. But that goes back to the fact that you can't insist we put every spare penny into education.



With this in there, I can't answer your question. Define "recently"

Again, illustrative of why your reasoning is flawed - you base it on totally unfounded assumptions like this.

You are obviously either brainwashed or trolling on this issue.

"No! The education system is fine. More than fine! Everything is going well! There are no broken families in America! America is not complacent!"

Because they're obvioulsy disjointed from reality.

Then logically prove how their obviously "disjointed" from reality

That's not an ideal, that's just absurdity. An education system is supposed to teach students what they can learn, not what it wishes they could learn.

In an *ideal* system....

I've never encountered any disdain for intelligence - though plenty for arguing with the teacher

But, Sky, as you've stated on numerous occasions, personal experiences are worthless

There are fifty bazillion Asians at my school, of the exact type you talk about.

Yes. The children tend not to like it, because it places pressure on them.
As opposed to American families, which dont have that pressure so much.

Also...why would you even ask if you consider their results to be "skewed" because they are a part of the "intellectual elite"?

Strange, I've seen the opposite in my experience.

[/QUOTE]

[Nubclear]

Sky, the formatting of your post sucks.

they certainly taught me plenty

No offense, but you aren't a particularly inspiring example

and there's virtually nothing besides maybe foreign languages that I'd say isn't important in the basic curriculum.

Whats wrong with forum languages? More people speak a foreign language than English!

A similar thing is happening is other subjects, though more slowly of course due to the same reason it's a difficult-to-explain example.

I hold that this is not true for other subjects because they are less logical than math is.
If you disagree, then please prove that it is the same

Exactly

Argh!

What experience you have is not current.

Wrong. Most of my experience simply comes from observation.

Where?

We lived in Chicago for a considerable time.

Yes it does... parents with a high education tend to make their children value education as well.

And, as I'll explain later, in Asia theres already an inherit cultural factor in intellectualism.

What's that have to do with me destroying the argument?

You always assume your correct....
But I suppose, as you get older, that will begin to pass

I'm just explaining why the reasons for the original claim are bunk.

Your claim was implied - "No, the only reason Asians tend to do better is because the wealthy Asians are the ones who move to the US.", thus implying that there is no cultural factor at all.
Infact I have lived in Asia for quite some time. There is a *definite* cultural factor when it comes to intellectualism.
Parents, as *you* said earlier, pressure their children to points that westerners consider "extreme". Because they dont want ot be "shamed", they try to perform up to this level.
This is *highly* prevelant, at least in India, and as I'm sure you'll recall India is a major exporter of intellectual populace.

Americans are mindless drones? (no)

Americans tend to be highly gullible to propaganda.
Let me ask you: Do you consider Fox News to be fair and balanced?

It isn't, except in the sense that there is only so much money, so spending some on extracurriculars depletes the pool available to spend on education. But that goes back to the fact that you can't insist we put every spare penny into education.

No, but if *I* were allocating the budget I'd take a bit and put it into education You see, at least here in Utah, the favorite thing to do to correct a shortfall is to cut education. Again and again and again.

And from here on, your sort of quoting me...except your not.

[Ben Kenobi]

Skywalker:

Fun though

Granted

What career and personal planning class?

We waste class time on a lame class that is supposed to help people pick out a career, and how to organise their life. In theory, a reasonable idea. In practice, a study session, where you don't need to bring books.

And what, pray tell, do you learn volunteering that most people don't usually learn with a summer job?

More interesting activities, and intellectually stimulating ones from volunteer activities than from summer jobs.

As for the discussion, this comes from my ToK class, which was a philosophy class, where we would try to apply what we learned to Real life examples, sort of 'issues of the day.'

It's one thing to debate the causes of the first world war, and quite another to apply philosophy to today's world. Many more students enjoy these types of discussions.