No Child Left Behind in Philly School District

[Nubclear]

Oooh...I'm being told I'm wrong by Ben and Sava.

Must mean I'm on the right track

[Sava]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Oooh...I'm being told I'm wrong by Ben and Sava.

Must mean I'm on the right track

Actually, when two people on opposite sides of most issues agree... that means you are wrong.

[Nubclear]

Thats true most of the time, but when those people are you and Ben...

The intelligence of Americans is either incredibly funny or incredibly sad, depending on whether you hate or like America. Bold steps need to be taken.

[Al B. Sure!]

and dont forget me disagreeing with you Tass...

[Ben Kenobi]

Thats true most of the time, but when those people are you and Ben

Yeah, don't forget speer.

He's contributed way more than I have to the thread.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
The intelligence of Americans is either incredibly funny or incredibly sad, depending on whether you hate or like America. Bold steps need to be taken.

While I might agree with you about certain problems with America's education system... I might point out that Russia isn't exactly a beacon of scholastic achievement.

Speer

[Nubclear]

OK, go back to challenging my points or off to the gulag with all of you

I might point out that Russia isn't exactly a beacon of scholastic achievement.

You are correct, however Russia collapsed 14 years ago, and then sort of collapsed again 7 years ago

[JohnT]

Taxpayers don't "support a bloated mini-NFL" anymore than they support a bloated chess club or a bloated language club.

While the topic in question is high schools, try making that argument to the AD's of the more than 200 NCAA schools whose football programs don't show a profit.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
1. Get rid of students who don't want to be there. Sounds harsh, but you can't force someone to get an education and if you try it brings down the quality of education for those who do wish to learn.

Don't get rid of them, seperate them out. Or rather, take the talented ones and put them in gifted programs.

2. Get rid of all non-academic programs in school. Valuable time that could be spent on true learning should *not* be spent on sports, carpentry, dance, etc...

It doesn't happen during school (except for PE, which does not appear to be the main thing you're attacking). It happens after school. Certainly, I could be spending some of my time at home studying. So? Are you advocating having children spend every single possible moment in school?

3. Increase the level of all material taught. The American educatin system teaches woefully little, and I can hardly believe any student could get les than a B+ in this system. It's time to teach more to make a more educated populace.

Rather, have multiple levels of advancement, so people can go at different paces. It's useless to try and teach someone faster than they can learn, and not-as-useful to teach them slower.

4. Introduce more social science courses. Americans are woefully stupid when it comes to politics, philosophy, etc. Its time to teach them to think for themselves.

Woefully stupid compared to whom? The really smart people? Duh.

5. Give the damn teachers a raise. ITs capitalist, but it'll work: Present teachers will work harder and more teachers will come.

Glad to see you advocating capitalism, Comrade

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
1. Athletics classes aren't working.

2. They suck up money.

3. They don't teach anything.

While I might agree with you on those points about PE (though this is more due to the nature of the class as practised, not the idea of a PE class), it doesn't apply to athletics. Unless you can seriously contend that things like swimming and track aren't "useful".

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
In America, this might actually be true. But I'm sure a few might stick around

This is your problem. You're basing everything off of the vastly false assumption that a) Americans are "stupid" and b) our education system is somehow "nonfunctional". You've somehow accepted what are generally ironic, joking remarks as pure and literal truth. You are like the France-bashers who actually believe what they say.

The simple fact is that people today in any developed nation are vastly more aware of the rest of the world than at any other point in history. Anything that hasn't changed is simple human nature, and it's useless to whine about it and stupid to attribute it to Americans specifically.

[Straybow]

I know that 12 years ago teachers in the Pittsbugh (PA) area were averaging $55k

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't get rid of them, seperate them out. Or rather, take the talented ones and put them in gifted programs.

Skywalker:

Several problems with this approach. First of all, if you want to stream, when will you do so? Secondly, in high school people may think they know what they want to do, but they don't really.

In this instance, streaming is something done to kids, in putting them away in the 'stupid' class, and the kids know this. The same with the 'smart' kids, when the reality may be very different.

I think that the kids should be kept together, and to raise the quality of the teaching for everyone. For example, you can have a harder stream (as I did,) but make it clear that the work will be harder and the only rewards will be a better education, not other side perks. By making it voluntary, and open to all the students, then you get a much better draw, and you avoid the problems associated with non-voluntary streaming.

Rather, have multiple levels of advancement, so people can go at different paces. It's useless to try and teach someone faster than they can learn, and not-as-useful to teach them slower.

Agreed, to a point. It has to be voluntary so that folks who may not have been 'labelled' smart get the option to try the quicker class, and see if things work out. And vice-versa.

Woefully stupid compared to whom? The really smart people? Duh.

I agree. We should have at least 1 class in philosophy mandatory to students, just to teach people how to construct a valid argument, and to pick out logical fallacies. This is not that hard, nor should it be boring. All you need to do is to throw out a topic for debate, and encourage every student to participate. I guarantee they would learn more than by rote memorisation.

[Odin]

I'm with Tass on this one.

*dodges tomatoes*


IWhen I was in high school I was disgusted about how dumbed down our education system is because whinny parents complain that thier kids failed a class. A C- has become what an F was 30 years ago. Let kids fail if they can't make it, there are plenty of McJobs and GEDs available for the stupid.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Several problems with this approach. First of all, if you want to stream, when will you do so? Secondly, in high school people may think they know what they want to do, but they don't really.

What does this have to do with gifted programs? And I'll let you know, in Northern Virginia the gifted program goes all the way back to third or fourth grade IIRC (I moved here, and they even have another level where you get bused to a center (which is usually part of a regular school too) starting in fifth, though mostly it happens in Junior High (seventh and eighth). Then all high schools are normal (though with honors classes), but we have an uber-school "Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology" that takes only 400 a year and has a lot of extra stuff. I go there; we're considered geeks who program our calculators in our spare time (not a completely inaccurate analysis ). Anyway, Northern VA also has the best public education system in the country.

And in high school, I can tell you kids are definately capable of deciding what they want to study.

In this instance, streaming is something done to kids, in putting them away in the 'stupid' class, and the kids know this. The same with the 'smart' kids, when the reality may be very different.

You don't have a stupid class (besides people with genuine disabilities), you just have extra levels for smart people to climb too.

I think that the kids should be kept together, and to raise the quality of the teaching for everyone. For example, you can have a harder stream (as I did,) but make it clear that the work will be harder and the only rewards will be a better education, not other side perks.

What other side perks?

By making it voluntary,

It already is.

and open to all the students,

It already is, if you're smart enough to get in.

then you get a much better draw, and you avoid the problems associated with non-voluntary streaming.

Not by letting anyone in who wants to. TJ is good, not really because of the facility (in fact, our building is pretty old), but because of the students. It would completely destroy the effectiveness of the school to let just anyone in.

I agree. We should have at least 1 class in philosophy mandatory to students, just to teach people how to construct a valid argument, and to pick out logical fallacies.

You need a whole class for this? It's pretty easy to cover this through Geometry (proofs) and history/civics courses.

This is not that hard, nor should it be boring. All you need to do is to throw out a topic for debate, and encourage every student to participate.

We already do that, in English and History.