Is Islam a form of Fascism?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


and again, as Berman, points out, fascism, as a reaction against modernity, adopts to what works as a reaction again in the local cultural context.

[snip]

Berman identifies the core of fascism NOT in ultranationalism, but in a cult of death and violence, and a revulsion at the "moral breakdown" associated with liberalism and modernity.

He'd then have to convince me that that's a sensible definition of Fascism, before it makes sense to argue whether Islamism is an example of it. Clarifying what is meant by "modernity" here would probably help.

Hostility to liberalism/individualism is certainly common both to European-style Fascism and Islamism, but that's, in itself, no more a reason to consider the later a variant of the former than the fact that both Islam and Judaicism embrace monotheism is a reason to consider the one a subset of the other.

[Thorn]

YOU ARE ALL TERRORISTS CLAIMING THE ABBORAHATION OF ISLAM BEING FASCISM I WILL HAVE YOU ARRESTED!!! ALARM ALARM SCHNELL SCHENLL!!!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

[snip]

He'd then have to convince me that that's a sensible definition of Fascism, before it makes sense to argue whether Islamism is an example of it. Clarifying what is meant by "modernity" here would probably help.

Hostility to liberalism/individualism is certainly common both to European-style Fascism and Islamism, but that's, in itself, no more a reason to consider the later a variant of the former than the fact that both Islam and Judaicism embrace monotheism is a reason to consider the one a subset of the other.

fascism as a form of hostily to liberalism that is A. Political (since there are apolitical ways to be hostile to liberalism B. Reactionary (Marxism is hostile to liberalism - this aint Marxism) C. That emphasize an organic conception of society D. That glorifies the cult of death E. Whose appeal is to a society, or to individuals, who are already somewhat distant from a genuine traditional society - see Gueveras very good comments on the relation of fascism and an industrial society

I beleive Berman goes on from there. Again, its worth reading.

[GePap]

Where does D come from? Fascism does not glorify Death, it glories Strength. Sacrifice is fine, but it is better to kill them all and live happy to multiply yourself.

As for E. I am dubious on that as well, and B. Yes, both Italian and German fascists had reactionary views- mixed in with rather radical views about reforming the world. That is the thing, while fascist dream of the supposed glorious past, they fully embrace the cult of technology, process, industry, modernism. That is why Mussolini speaks about the corporation state.

[Last Conformist]

Well, I do not find that a good definition, because it's wider than what I think of when I hear "Fascism". Also, I'm not sure Reactionarity can really be considered a defining trait of Nazism or Italian Fascism. They did, even while speaking of regaining lost glories, make a point of creating something new.

It's hard to entirely avoid the suspicion that there is being played with definition to get to label Islamism with a label that will prompt instinctive revulsion from the reader.

Well, I guess I'd need read Berman's book - it's been on my "should read" list for a while now - before commenting very much more.

[GePap]

Nazism goes beyond fasicm by including all sorts of biological goobledigook.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Where does D come from? Fascism does not glorify Death, it glories Strength. Sacrifice is fine, but it is better to kill them all and live happy to multiply yourself.

As for E. I am dubious on that as well, and B. Yes, both Italian and German fascists had reactionary views- mixed in with rather radical views about reforming the world. That is the thing, while fascist dream of the supposed glorious past, they fully embrace the cult of technology, process, industry, modernism. That is why Mussolini speaks about the corporation state.

and the jihadis are quite willing to embrace modern technology, including the internet, satphones, etc not to mention Semtex and Sarin. I think Qutb makes that distinction himself. AS for the deathcult and fascism, thats very much at the core of Bermans book. If youre really interested, i suggest you read it. Its not all that long.

GePap - again im gonna have to "Imran" you and in your case, you dont even have to pay for the book (availble in libraries) whereas I WOULD have had to support Taketwo.

[GePap]

Honestly, besides not having the time, and really lakcing mass interest, i have read myself many of the fascist thinkers, and I never noted much of a "death cult" in any of them.

So, as someone who has read the primary texts, I myself, from ym own annylisis, do not see a "death cult".

On the tehcnology issue-using technology and extolling technology are two different things. You can use the tools of modernity without wanting to make them central to your ideology.

Look at what the Nazi's did- create all sorts of social programs, vacations for workers, the autobahns, so forth and so on. They also had a very radical approach for the family. The Nazi's, for all their exholtation of the family, actually put alliegence to the state first-so in fact they undermined the family much as communism did, by letting kids and teenagers ally with the state vs. Parental whishes. That is most certainly not reactionary.

[problem_child]

Originally posted by GePap
Where does D come from? Fascism does not glorify Death, it glories Strength. Sacrifice is fine, but it is better to kill them all and live happy to multiply yourself.

As for E. I am dubious on that as well, and B. Yes, both Italian and German fascists had reactionary views- mixed in with rather radical views about reforming the world. That is the thing, while fascist dream of the supposed glorious past, they fully embrace the cult of technology, process, industry, modernism. That is why Mussolini speaks about the corporation state.

I thought Mussolini's interest in corporatism was as a means to overcome Class War (the differing interests in society between classes) and unifying the classes towards a common fascist State-centred agenda?

[Al B. Sure!]

i dont know about this death cult business in relation to fascism but it surely is an aspect in islamism. In his "In the shade of the qu'ran", Qutb does glorify the sacrifices of the islamist warriors... i can not recall the exact quote but it does have the sense of one's dying for islam is right as it gives strength to future fighters..

qutb, however, was not such a fighter... he withered away in a prison cell for years, was released, and then promptly re-arrested and executed by the Pan-Arabist (read fascist) Egyptian gov't.

[:) Smiley]

Both glorify war. War involves death. QED.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Berman doesnt state that there can be a panislamic nationalism, rather that nationalism is NOT what fascism is fundamentally about. Throughout you take as GIVEN that fascism is a form of nationalism.

It IS a GIVEN than Fascism's main tenant is superiority of the nation. If Berman denies that then he doesn't know what the Hell he is talking about. Without nationalism there exists no Fascism. Case closed. Seeing that it was originally created as an ultra-nationalism which emphasesed the national ties (Mussolini's New Rome, Hitler's appeal to pagan German mythos), I don't see how Fascism can even begin to exist outside of a nation.

[Al B. Sure!]

although it is conceivable to argue that nationality can be equated with religion. both have traditions and culture. nationality's common association with a genetic ethnicity is not necessary (nationalist americans for example have no genetic ethnicity that they are elevating). one could say nationality and religion are both social constructs made of the same basic things (traditions, culture, moral rules)...

[Imran Siddiqui]

But you can enter and leave a religion at will. It is almost impossible to leave your nationality, except in those few states where the nation is simply those people within the state... but, of course, in those states, Fascism doesn't really become too popular and it is really only appealing to a ethnic subset (ie, white males in the US).

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
If Berman denies that then he doesn't know what the Hell he is talking about.

Imran, youve spent a hell of alot of time talking about a book you havent read. Go to the library and read it, for free, already.