Is Islam a form of Fascism?

[Drake Tungsten]

Both are labelled as "Amercanisms", which are defined as "the latest crap the White House want you to swallow".

They might be words to you - but they're only there to make you think the way certain people want you think.

Or not, as the case may be.

Oh, for christ's sake...

The term "Islamism" and "Islamist" have been around a hell of a lot longer than the current Administration. Stop being an idiot.

[Imran Siddiqui]

being of the german cultural group while living in Switzerland doesn't make nationality permanent. that same german national could go to america and renounce the german culture and be fully americanized.

A society of Germans living in Switzerland makes it a part of the German nation. A society of Germans in Russia, makes that part of the German nation. Nationality is more based on culture and ethnicity of societial groups rather than state boundaries. And the nation doesn't have to join together into one mass. Even if you emmigrate, you can still be a part of your homeland nation. In fact, one can refer to German neighborhoods in cities like Milwaukee to be part of the German nation.

Naziism is a very extreme version, saying that if you have any blood in you of a certain nation, then you are tainted and a part of that nation.

[Al B. Sure!]

alright cruddy... so if we played your game how would we differentiate people like Bin Laden from your typical Sunni muslims?

islamism is beyond the religion... it is a political idealogy. this thread is about if this political idealogy known as islamism is fascist or not.

[Al B. Sure!]

Imran, you're not making sense to me... i know nationality goes beyond the boundaries of a particular State... nationality is a cultural group. therefore, nationality can be changed at the discretion of the individual. i chose to partake in the german culture so i am of german nationality. i chose not to, then i am not of the german nationality.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I've heard enough from you to realize that he's full of crap. Anyone that asserts nationalism isn't primary to Fascism isn't worth me reading.

Nationalism isn't primary to fascism. What is primary to fascism is rage against modern society. In the case of Germany and Italy, it was rage against the collapsing status of the middle classes in the face of capitalism on the one hand and the failure of the working class to bring about socialism (though I doubt they could have articulated it that way). What they felt was that everything was going wrong, that big business didn't care for the ordinary (i.e., the angry person) people and was robbing them blind, while the workers were out of control. Crime was up. Sexual morality was down. Kids talked back to parents. It just wasn't like the good old days anymore. Look at Speer. He's a classic facsist.

Hyper-nationalism is one way to express this rage, but by no means is it the only one. I can easily imagine a fascist movement in the United States based on right-wing, evangelical Christianity. Of course, here they have been able to advance their goals without resorting to fascism. We'll see what happens when they begin to lose power (hope hope).

Hitherto, I adhered to a strict Trotskyist understanding of Fascism, but LotM raises an excellent point about communism in non-industrial societies. I picked up the Berman book at the library, but I also received like ten books on the Ottoman Empire through ILL, so I need to read/skim those first before I can dive into Berman.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
A society of Germans living in Switzerland makes it a part of the German nation.

In Russia, yes. German-speaking Swiss, however, consider themselves Swiss, and not Germans, and are insulted at being called Germans. Language is frequently linked with nationality, but it doesn't have to be.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
There is an American nation, but it's being destroyed by recent immigrants who refuse to renounce their ties to their old nations.

Thank you for your input, Mr. 19th-Century. Now please go back to your own time.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hyper-nationalism is one way to express this rage, but by no means is it the only one.

I'd disagree. To the Fascist, hyper-nationalism is the way to express this rage. It is the primary way to do so (there can be more than one primary tenants to an ideology, especially when it is complicated and requires checks on the word so it doesn't fall into another definitons). In the nation, everyone is unified by the cultural and ethnic background. In religions you have too many people who are different. People who look different, come from different cultural backgrounds. That won't work. You need similar culture in order for a fascist state. In fact, the Fascists in Germany took over the churches and made them tools for the state, or else they would have been too divisive to the German nation.

[Al B. Sure!]

Imran:

but religions are social/cultural constructs just as nationalities are. I'm not seeing any distinct difference between the two... both have certain moral laws, tabboos, traditions, means of setting up society and government, both have art, etc.

i think you're trying to equate religion with idealogy to prove its impermance as compared with nationality... but idealogy is lacking one thing which religion (and nationality) is stepped in... cultural tradition. political idealogy does not have a tradition of odd customs, tabboos, etc.

[Imran Siddiqui]

religions are social/cultural constructs just as nationalities are. I'm not seeing any distinct difference between the two

Religions have generally much more far ranging cultures that come into it. Christianity, for instance, has Ethopians with their own culture, English win their own culture, etc, etc. Nationality usually has a distinct culture.

[Whaleboy]

isms and icities suck

[GePap]

The Nazi did not take over the Churches, and in fact they were generally anti-Christian.

[Drake Tungsten]

Thank you for your input, Mr. 19th-Century. Now please go back to your own time.

That's pretty ironic, coming from an avowed communist...

[Al B. Sure!]

Imran, but religions have dramatically changed/destroyed cultures. The various germanic cultures of the dark ages were drastically changed with their conversion to christianity... the ancient Persian culture, steeped in zoroastrianism, merged with the culture of the muslim arabs, disappearing as a distinct culture.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
alright cruddy... so if we played your game how would we differentiate people like Bin Laden from your typical Sunni muslims?

Weollllll... here's an analogy first. How about Israelis and Jews? One group being much more dangerous than the other. Of course, some Israelis claim to be the "only" Jews just as some Israelis are atheist and by definition aren't following the Jewish tradition. In a technical sense they are all Jewish (being born of a Jewish mothers) but in a practical every day sense the different groups are very different.

Islam, being about 10 times bigger than Judaism, covering maybe 30 times as much area (I'm guessing conservatively here folks) are a damn sight harder to categorise. Not that anybody ever thinks about what sort of Jews the Israelis are. It's just accepted they are.

So, back to your question. I would catergorise OBL as a heretic. He advocates the killing of the innocent, intolerance to all religions except his own brand of Islam, and a solution to the world's problem that is at least very violent and at worst, plain old evil.

Musilms - S'hia, Sunni, don't matter - won't compromise over those 3 points. Violence for violence' sake is a big no no to Islam - self defence is allowed, but attacks on things like the WTC and the Madrid public transport system damn him to his religious margin.

Originally posted by Albert Speer
islamism is beyond the religion... it is a political idealogy. this thread is about if this political idealogy known as islamism is fascist or not.

Yes, but what you (and others, OK, I admit that) label as "Islamism" is too easily confused with "Islam". It's also not the easiest bunny in the wood to pronounce...

You guys KNOW the media play you the sound bites, give you the words, and expect you to blindly obey.

Why not work out the answers yourselves? I mean, all you've got is my word for it. Just turn off the TV and think for half an hour.