Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Islam a form of Fascism?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Saint Marcus
    Let's see...

    hallmarks for fascism:

    *** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission. - CHECK

    *** Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit. - CHECK

    *** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others - CHECK

    *** Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate. - CHECK

    *** Cult of personality around a charismatic leader. - UNSURE (yes wrt terrorist groups such as Hamas and Al Qaida, no wrt Iran or Sudan).

    *** Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism. - CHECK

    *** Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character. - CHECK

    *** Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them. - CHECK

    *** The self image of being a superior form of social organization beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy. - UNSURE (islam does consider itself superior to socialism/capitalism/democracy, but views itself not "beyond" them, but before them. Sorta a "honourable barbarian" thing. Going back to their roots, instead of going beyond the current paradigms)

    *** Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society. - CHECK

    *** Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power. - NO CHECK (they're mostly purists, after all)

    Most fit, it seems...
    Pretty much every country in the world is fascist then...
    In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Albert Speer
      Saint Marcus:



      how in god's name is this a check? there is no nationalism in any islamic terrorist organization. Al Qaeda is made up of Tunisians, Algerians, Egyptians, Saudis, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Chechnyans, Indonesians, Malaysians, etc. there's no currents of nationalism in islamism.
      Though I do *not* think Islam is facist, I disagree strongly here. Ever heard of the "Umma" (sp?), the imaginary Pan-Muslim/Pan-Arab (depending on who is blathering about it) state?

      Note that there is a difference between Islam and being an Islamist.

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #48
        I don't see what's nationalistic about the Ummah. It's a grouping of all Muslims worldwide, regardless of nationality or ethnicity.
        KH FOR OWNER!
        ASHER FOR CEO!!
        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

        Comment


        • #49
          Ah, but the hardcore Islamists (the only group one could even argue might be "fascist") want it to be much more...

          -Arrian
          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by GePap
            I do view fascism as inherently nationalistic and rightfully so. Simply a rejection of liberalism does not make something fascist. Maybe Berman should, I don;t know, coin a new term? That is possible.
            Gepap, I suggested some months ago that you read Bermans book. Its not that its the greatest book every written, or whatever, but im gonna have to do an Imran ("LOTM, you sure talk alot about GTA for someone who's never played it") on you - you really SHOULD read the book for yourself. I dont suppose it will convince you, but it will be preferable to my trying to make Berman's points for him. The argument he makes for considering Qutbism as a form of fascism explicitly addresses the question of nationalism, and in quite a nuanced way, IIRC. He does not simply call it fascism because its a rejection of liberalism, but because its a particular kind of rejection of liberalism.
            Last edited by lord of the mark; June 8, 2004, 13:05.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #51
              Some of you people know disturbingly little about Islam
              "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
              "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Whaleboy
                Some of you people know disturbingly little about Islam
                Ive read Bernard Lewis, "what went wrong" and "political language of Islam", and, from a different point of view, albert Hourrani's "History of the Arab People" (exact title?). I would like to read more.


                I would agree, that anyone who wants to seriously address these matters needs to read beyond the headlines.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment


                • #53
                  I would agree, that anyone who wants to seriously address these matters needs to read beyond the headlines.


                  I suppose I make a point of getting disperate views from Muslims I know.
                  "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                  "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I assume the question is whether Islamism is a form of Fascism?

                    I think not, unless a hopelessly wide definition of Fascism is adopted (I've, afterall, run into folks who've seriously argued that, among other movements, the American Democratic Party and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union are/were Fascist). Islamism is, in principle, universalistic, while I consider nationalism as an absolute requirement of Fascisthood. As others have pointed out, secular Pan-Arabism/Arab Nationalism are better candidates.

                    The Ummah is, by anyone with pretensions of orthodoxy, defined as a community of faith, not of race or nation.
                    Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

                    It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
                    The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Last Conformist
                      I assume the question is whether Islamism is a form of Fascism?

                      I think not, unless a hopelessly wide definition of Fascism is adopted (I've, afterall, run into folks who've seriously argued that, among other movements, the American Democratic Party and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union are/were Fascist). Islamism is, in principle, universalistic, while I consider nationalism as an absolute requirement of Fascisthood. As others have pointed out, secular Pan-Arabism/Arab Nationalism are better candidates.

                      The Ummah is, by anyone with pretensions of orthodoxy, defined as a community of faith, not of race or nation.
                      and again, as Berman, points out, fascism, as a reaction against modernity, adopts to what works as a reaction again in the local cultural context. In Italy that was more or less pure ultranationalism, but it was NOT racist, and could include Jews (until the German alliance pressured Italy to adopt race laws). In Germany it was ultra-nationalism with a significant admixture of racism, which at various points led to conflicts with more traditional notions of German nationalism. In Spain it was nationalism that was closely associated with the universal Catholic Church, in a way that would have been quite foreign to German or Italian fascism. In a traditional Islamic context, a violent reaction against modernity would naturally NOT be nationalist, but would center around the Ummah instead. Berman identifies the core of fascism NOT in ultranationalism, but in a cult of death and violence, and a revulsion at the "moral breakdown" associated with liberalism and modernity.

                      Reading Berman, one of the first questions one must ask, is "Was Francoism fascist" Its quite possible to argue that it wasnt, and this weakens Bermans argument considerably.
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Ok we will spell it out in simpler terms.

                        Fascism = is a form of Government for a Nation

                        Islam = Religion

                        Fascism = Government

                        Islam = Religion

                        In spite of the fact that you like using fascism negative connotations and attaching it to everything fanatical, fascism is a form of government not an all encompassing term for evil fanaticism.

                        Many islamic countries are still monarchies where the king is a ruler of divine right.
                        Hence they are Monarchies...... Lord this doesn't seem to be sinking in well.

                        We can try a civ2 analogy:

                        Fascism -> What only Germany, Italy, Spain and possibly Argentina has been.
                        Communism
                        Democracy
                        Republic
                        Monarchy -> Islamic States are usually (they call them Kings now instead of Sultans)
                        Despotism -> Military Dictatorships like Pakistan, or Saddam's Iraq was.
                        Fundamentalism -> Islam is
                        Theocracy ->Al Qaeda wants this if anything.
                        Technocracy
                        Corporatism
                        Anarchy
                        "Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"​​

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Thorn
                          Ok we will spell it out in simpler terms.

                          Fascism = is a form of Government for a Nation

                          Islam = Religion

                          Fascism = Government

                          Islam = Religion

                          In spite of the fact that you like using fascism negative connotations and attaching it to everything fanatical, fascism is a form of government not an all encompassing term for evil fanaticism.


                          islamism != islam
                          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Is Islam a form of Fascism?

                            No. Fascism is a mass movement that requires an advanced industrialized society. It is possible there could be an Islamic based fascist movement in a country like Malaysia or Singapore, where the economic base for fascism exists, but Islamic fundimentalism is not fascism.

                            Islamic fundimentalism is, however, related to fascism in that they are both reactionary movements of the ruined middle classes harkening back to a mythical golden age.
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Is the United States Fascist?

                              *** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission. - CHECK

                              *** Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit. - CHECK

                              *** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others - CHECK

                              *** Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate. - SORT OF (Many leaders are not elected by the people, and voting rights could easily be taken away)

                              *** Cult of personality around a charismatic leader. - CHECK

                              *** Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism. - CHECK

                              *** Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character. - CHECK

                              *** Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them. - CHECK

                              *** The self image of being a superior form of social organization beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy. - NO CHECK

                              *** Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society. - CHECK

                              *** Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power. - NO CHECK

                              Eventis is the only refuge of the spammer. Join us now.
                              Long live teh paranoia smiley!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Re: Is Islam a form of Fascism?

                                Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                                No. Fascism is a mass movement that requires an advanced industrialized society. It is possible there could be an Islamic based fascist movement in a country like Malaysia or Singapore, where the economic base for fascism exists, but Islamic fundimentalism is not fascism.
                                communism is a mass movement of the working class. Does it therefore follow that communism cant exist in a pre-industrial society?? Obviously, there are individual communists and even communist parties in societies that dont have the class base for a mass party. Which means that said party cant come to power, or can do so only with considerable contradictions. I would think the same could be said about "islamo-fascism" - in states without a working class base - like Afghanistan, or Yemen, or the Pashtun areas of Pakistan - islamofascism is an "adventurist" ideology, without real roots, and which is forced into alliance with local purely "feudalist" reactionary movements. Im not sure the same can be said about the movement in more urbanized countries like Algeria, Egypt, or even Saudi Arabia - let alone the appeal of the movement to muslim students living temporarily in the West.
                                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X