D-day. "Greater love has no man than this..."

[Patroklos]

These forums have long, accurate, and quotable memories.

[Pekka]

No because you keep making these remarks. Patrokolos said:
"6. If you were a Lithuanian, Ukranian, or Finn then the good side for you was who ever was fighting the Russians."

and you replied:

"No it wasn't. You might provide that as an excuse, but you were definitely fighting for the wrong side. I find it unbelievable that you would say this."

The way I see it, you meant that we were fighting FOR the German side.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Patroklos
These forums have long, accurate, and quotable memories.

Indeed. And I hope you remember some of the things you've said with shame. I cannot and will not equate a German's sacrifices in furtherance of an evil cause with an Allied soldier's sacrifices in furtherance of a good one.

Pekka: I had assumed he was talking about foreigners who had volunteered for the German Army. The question of the Finns' involvement in WWII as a nation is more complex as they had already been at war with the USSR before the Eastern Front opened up.

[Pekka]

ah ok. I thought you were talking about all these countries fighting FOR Hitler or something. okie dokie. Well I think this is my cue for exit.

[Patroklos]

Indeed. And I hope you remember some of the things you've said with shame. I cannot and will not equate a German's sacrifices in furtherance of an evil cause with an Allied soldier's sacrifices in furtherance of a good one.

I never said I admired them the same, hell I am in the uniform of one of the sides. Live in ignorance then, it seems to be your status quo.

Pekka: I had assumed he was talking about foreigners who had volunteered for the German Army. The question of the Finns' involvement in WWII as a nation is more complex as they had already been at war with the USSR before the Eastern Front opened up.

:cough:BACKPEDDLE:cough:

You were very clear with what you said, and Pekka took it the right way.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Considering the complete lack of accurate knowledge both KH and AH have showed in general here,

Actually it's more a case of my having a much more comprehensive knowledge of the Wehrmacht's deep involvement in Hitler's crimes than you.

Ordinary German army units took part in the atrocities, many crimes having no SS involvement at all. Their occupation policy was criminal - revenge killings, stealing, enslavement, murder. All just a day at the office for your average Whermacht unit.

The War in the West was more restrained but the policies were the same.

After the war, most of these men went back to their ordinary jobs - like the Hamburg police unit that spent much of the war shooting Jews and civilians. The nice policeman on the beat after the war in Hamburg was most likely war criminal.

Another interesting thing is taking part in mass murder was voluntary but it was almost unknown for German soldiers to refuse to take part in crimes against humanity. Does this show Germans are bad? No, it shows that 99% of people will go along with criminal behaviour if their government tells them it's okay.

[Ben Kenobi]

I hope to God that if I'm ever in a situation where a tyrant puts me on the front lines I'll have the courage to turn my rifle on him. These men didn't.

Just because they give you a rifle, doesn't mean you have to use it.

[KrazyHorse]

Unless I was an absolute pacifist, not using it in that situation would be almost as bad as using it in support of the tyrant.

I'm not, so I hope I would have the courage to go after the bastards who put me there.

If I were a pacifist I'd toss my gun down, sit on the side of the road and wait for them to shoot me.

[Alexander's Horse]

If you are at all interested in what Wehrmacht units did, or were capable of, have a look at this history of the Hamburg police battalions. It is something of a case study.

http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035/police101.html

Most of the Members of these units just returned to the Hamburg police after the war. They resumed their police careers and remained on duty till their retirement and were never called to account for their crimes.

Chilling to think of it. This story is repeated over and over with Wehrmacht units.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos
That is what happened to them, and the only reason they are evil is because they lost. I believe their cause was evil, but I am on the other side and not so narrow minded as you as not to realize how relative such things are.

You would have to be a nutcase or completely ignorant to believe the Nazis were relatively evil. Look at what they did. They committed genocide. They turned millions of Europeans into slaves that worked them to death. There was nothing relative about their lack of morality. It was absolute.

Originally posted by Patroklos
As far as moral relativism, there is a reason WWII veterans from opposites sides embrace each other as feinds from the moment the war ended, and even during.

You truely are delusional. Where do you get these crazy ideas? The former enemies did not embrace each other. When the war ended, German and American soldiers did not hug each other.

Originally posted by Patroklos
I admire any man who will fight for what he believes,

Sh1t, not only does he admire the Nazis, he also admires bin Laden.

What a wacko.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
There are Canadians vets who hold no malice towards the Germans, but there are also vets who do not forgive them. Don't presume to talk for them.

As I said, 'by and large' jeenyus.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The Germans in the 1930s wanted war. The French and British did not. When Germany invaded Austria, France and Germany did nothing. When Germany threatened Czechoslovakia, France and Britain tried to keep the peace with the Munich agreement. When Germany invaded Czechoslovakia in March 1939, Britain and France still did nothing, but everyone knew that the Germans wanted war.

And remember that each time Hitler decided to invade a country and start a new war, the German people fully supported him. They, the overwhelming majority of Germans, wanted to conquer Europe. They believe that they were the "master race" and they had a right to kill others and take their lands.

troll {
Ah... so Hitler was Germany's Reagan who after the staflation of the 1920s made Germans believe once again in Germany and in their need to manifest their destiny of the continent.

They escalated their weapons programs to take out the Evil Empire of the Bolsheviks and never blinked.
}

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Patroklos
This was a single incident in Normandy that you are talking about, and there was a similar one in the Ardennes with the Americans. There are many more. Horrible. But that is all you ever hear about. It is common fact in the historical community that Germany was not the worst at killing prisoners in WWII (Western Front). Americans and Brits were notorious for killing POWs, because after all they were just stinking Nazis (aren't there two people here that have the same opinion?). Who was #1? Canadians.

There was little differance in the day to day operations of the Armies in WWII concerning POW killing and civilian abuses on the Western Front. Germans did puncuate that with attrocities, which they have paid for to the degree we are able too achieve. But don't think we were clean in any way, or that the majority of the German behavior was in any way abnormal to the militaries of the time.

Do you have a source for those killings of POWs numbers? I'll ask nicely, but I've got to tell you you're smelling like you have a full diaper.

What might confuse you is the difference between the execution of disarmed soldiers who had been accepted as prisoners and the type of no-quarter combat that occured in some cases where prisoners neither offered themselves (usually) nor were accepted (sometimes). Like what happened after the Canucks found out about the executed prisoners in Normandy and they once again faced the same people who did it.

Now, if you can give me a source of Canadians lining people up against the wall who had already been accepted as POWs and been disarmed, I'd be interested. But I won't hold my breath.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Yes it does. Many of them were young and impressionable. Many were forced to fight. They still fought for evil. They deserve the thanks of Germany for putting their bodies in the way of the bullets that Germany brought upon itself. They don't deserve my thanks or admiration.

Why the hell would you admire any soldiers?

The truly courageous Germans risked their lives for freedom by refusing to fight, by helping Jews escape the slaughter, by spying for the Allies, by defecting at the first opportunity.

The truly courageous Canadians fought the monster of conscription tooth and nail. Soldiers are all cowards by definition. Bucking the system is always harder than just going through the motions.

The rest are not criminals simply for fighting when their government told them to. They were simply weak men, and their weakness cost the lives of 50 million.

All armies are composed of weak men and women.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Patroklos
1. There was not a single major SS formation on the beaches on D-Day. Three Divisions arrived several days to weeks afterward.

Oh, and your facts are very suspect. Elements of 12 SS were in combat on the 7th.