To be "cultured"

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Asher

It's against the rules.

Re: rules

See: made to be broken

[monkspider]

I think that the bottom line that all posters involved in this discussion will agree with (Asher included) is that while Asher's ideas are inherently inferior to our own, we should not perma-IP ban him in the name of forward thinking.

Agreed?

[Asher]

But if we break the rules, we will have no objective measure of what "good" art is.

[monolith94]

Hey Boris - I was wondering what you thought of Bartok's "Bluebeard's Castle"? I rented the cd from the library and I really love it...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by monolith94
Hey Boris - I was wondering what you thought of Bartok's "Bluebeard's Castle"? I rented the cd from the library and I really love it...

It's a great piece. One of the ingenious things about its composition is that the character of Bluebeard sings in atonal form, while Judith's part is tonal.

Bartok is mighty cool. Check out his string quartets if you want to have your mind blown.

[monolith94]

It's certainly a very emotional and dramatic work. I have ambitions in terms of making films, and I think that some of the shorter "doors" would be perfect additions to a film.

Also, are you familiar with Bernard Hermann's score to Vertigo? I think you'd love it.

[Dis]

I still consider anyone who likes pro wrestling to be uncultured.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Which doesn't explain the popularity of opera in working class communities in South Wales, for instance. Or explain why gold miners in Victoria in the 19th Century would willingly part with large sums of money to pay people to come from Europe and entertain them. I don't believe that in either instance one can attribute it to either group wishing to ape the standards of the elite.

The genre can be loved by people regardless of their class or culture. Heck, even uncultured youngsters as my geeky friends are enthralled by the opera singers' voice in Nightwish, or hip-hop songs featuring Montserrat Caballé.
However, at least in France where it is ridiculously expansive, opera is a "standard" of the elite: i.e a cultural standard to which the wanabee elites try to conform when they're not especially into the genre (but don't mind enough to be in open opposition against it)... and to which the elites "naturally" conform, just the same way a geek "naturally" conforms to the Hitch Hiker's Guide, or a pre-teen "naturally" conforms to the latest idol.

Who are these 'elite' anyway? And how do they 'set' the cultural standards?

The 'elite' is a relatively heterogenous group, that is marked by a high education, a significant wealth, or both. They tend to occupy positions of cultural influence (be they artists, professors, newspaper owners / redactors, art patrons etc.)
It is not a big consipracy. Actually, the actual members of the 'elite' (and not the wanabee ones) generally don't purposefully strive for repeating the stereotype. It rather comes more naturally to them, since it has been either ingrained since childhood, or assimilated since the times they intended to feel 'elite'.

The main difference between the 'elite' and any other subculture is not elitism. Actually, every subculture I've encountered was elitist, and tended to regard others as somewhat (or blatantly) inferior. The 'elite' aren't the worst, far from it.

The main difference is that the 'elite' is sufficiently influent in society to have its cultural standards set as something worth striving for. In academia, classical culture (which is definitely not a trademark of blue collar culture) is rewarded. At work, the rewarded language is not street slang, but the kind of language that is natural to the upper-middle classes. The general press salutes "refined" culture and often reviles pop culture...

Did Pavarotti singing 'Ness'un Dorma' really become popular because football fans wanted to be the chairman of Deutsche Bank or because just possibly they recognised a trained voice when they heard it?

Nope. Again, opera is a worthy musical genre in its own right. But part of the opera's clientele (especially in opera houses) are indeed wanabee members of the 'elite'. Just like part of the gothic music listeners do it for the feeling of bemlonging more than for the music.

Have you ever seen the film 'High Fidelity', Spiffor? It might give you an insight into musical snobbery and elitism which are not of the upper classes, nor anything to do with opera or classical music.

As I said, elitism is definitely not a specificity of the opera / classical subculture (or 'elite' subculture, as it encompasses other forms of classical arts, knowledge, and language). Every subculture I encountered is elitist to some degree, and the 'elites' aren't even the worst.

The worst I've ever found were the l33t H4x0rZ

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Being sophisticated involves understanding classic Western literature, art, and culture. What is coming out today is just entertainment for stupid people. Classical European culture is not entertainment. It is designed to educate people and make them think. Every time I see a Shakespeare play or read a Dickens novel, I feel more intelligent and enlightened.

See, Molly? Here is what I was talking about. Somebody who strives to correspond to a stereotype, and isn't even discreet about it.
Heck, he even thinks Shakespeare is educational . I'd believe he was a fresh valedictorian (sp?) (the pompous kind), if it wasn't for the style.

What we have here is somebody acting as a l33t H4x0rz. Only that his elitism corresponds to the standards that are often rewarded in society (unlike l33t H4x0rZ standards that are thankfully ridiculed by the general society).

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Spiffor

l33t H4x0rZ

w00t!

That's actually a really good analogy.

[Atahualpa]

Computer Geeks can never get cultured. Especially not when their hoppy is ranting on Apple.

[Ljube]

Spiffor, come and join mafia 20. I'm GM.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Heck, even uncultured youngsters as my geeky friends are enthralled by the opera singers' voice in Nightwish

Oh oh oh, I love Nightwish!

[King of Rasslin]

Actually, I AM my school's valedictorian.

[chequita guevara]

Generally, cultured art has references to other works of art. Hip-hop turned this on its head, as it tends to take preveious works of art and use them to create musical collages, yet even within that genre, there are tips of the hat, references to what has gone before, that help you to understand the context of the newer art.

The reason cultured art is "better" isn't because it has filtered through the ages or any conservative crap like that, but because it can be enjoyed on many layers. Uncultured art is generally only enjoyable on an immediate level.