An Intellectual Discussion About Killing Babies

[bipolarbear]

I do think the doctors who profit off of abortion should face jail time. Similar penalties for them as for killing any other child.

And if they perform it for free?

[Ben Kenobi]

Isn't that jsut forcing you opinion about where life begins on people with different views?

Laws do that all the time.

What about the member of the KKK who considers blacks to be less than persons, so feels perfectly justified in killing one as you would any other animal? Would we let him off the hook just because he has a different definition of personhood?

[Ben Kenobi]

And if they perform it for free?

Show me one abortion doctor who performs them free of charge.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

In the case of rape, yes, the woman did not consent to have the child. But neither does the child consent to his mother. The child is not responsible for the rape, and has nowhere else to go, but inside the womb of his mother. Afterwards, if the woman wants to give up her child for adoption, she should, but until then, we should help the woman however we can.

Well, it is obvious we differ in opinion where life begins. My mother always told me that, though she had a miscarraige, her belife in God led to her beliving that it was my soul, but I was not ready to enter this world. Therefore, I do not believe that any soul truly enters the word until coming out of the womb.

Are you going to tell me that my mother's belife, along with her faith in the Almighty, is wrong? Don't you think that God knows which babies are to be born, and will save each baby until the time is right?

If not...then what is a miscarraige?

[Ben Kenobi]

But on a more petinet note, how many "criminal" abortions are reported? I'd guess only those that are discovered. So obviously the rates would drop. Everything is now behing closed doors.

Good point. A very good point.

"Let’s list the 1990 figures and then look ahead to 1994, the second year after abortion was forbidden except for danger to the life or health of the mother, rape and fetal handicap.

During this time the number of registered abortions declined to 176th of what it had been, and there was not a single death due to illegal abortion. All of these figures are exactly opposite of what International Planned Parenthood people in Poland predicted when the restrictive law was passed."

Deaths related to pregnancy actually dropped after the criminalisation of abortion!

I can give the source, but you might not like it.

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/loveboth/chapter27.html

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you going to tell me that my mother's belife, along with her faith in the Almighty, is wrong? Don't you think that God knows which babies are to be born, and will save each baby until the time is right?

If not...then what is a miscarraige?

I don't believe that one needs to believe that babies recieve their souls at birth in order to explain miscarriages.

Bad things happen to people at all ages, through disease and through sickness. We do not know precisely the causes of miscarriage, but we may slowly learn more as time passes on. Our ignorance of the causes should not lead us to blame God for the miscarriages.

Nor do I believe that God will consign the souls of those who die in the womb, through no fault of his own. God can save those whom he will save.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Poland has seen this in their own abortion rates, they have seen a substantial drop since they recriminalised abortion.

Poland borders seven countries with legal abortion. It is slightly bigger than the state of New York. If I were Polish and self-supporting, I wouldn't bother with illegal means.

Also, commies were prudes when it came to sex. With the fall of the Stalinist headcases, Poland has inevitably acquired a healthier attitude towards sex and greater access to simple contraceptives.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is slightly bigger than the state of New York. If I were Polish and self-supporting, I wouldn't bother with illegal means.

Then New York state should also have no problems with criminalising abortion.

Also, commies were prudes when it came to sex. With the fall of the Stalinist headcases, Poland has inevitably acquired a healthier attitude towards sex and greater access to simple contraceptives.

I'm all for that. Keep contraception and criminalise abortion. Improve the reproductive health of women.

[bipolarbear]

What about the member of the KKK who considers blacks to be less than persons, so feels perfectly justified in killing one as you would any other animal? Would we let him off the hook just because he has a different definition of personhood?

Touche,
*Bipolar kowtows to Ben

Show me one abortion doctor who performs them free of charge.

I'd think that it has to have happened at least once. But as for one who does it regularly, I don't know of one. I think I heard about one in New York, but that was probably a rumor.

If not...then what is a miscarraige?

Well, can't that jsut be a simple case of biologicalfactors thta don't allow the abbay to be born?

"Let’s list the 1990 figures and then look ahead to 1994, the second year after abortion was forbidden except for danger to the life or health of the mother, rape and fetal handicap.

During this time the number of registered abortions declined to 176th of what it had been, and there was not a single death due to illegal abortion. All of these figures are exactly opposite of what International Planned Parenthood people in Poland predicted when the restrictive law was passed."

Deaths related to pregnancy actually dropped after the criminalisation of abortion!

SO had their been any deaths due to legal abortion? Maybe having it illegal makes it safer for the mother?
But really, all that that says is that I was right. The number registerd abortions dropped.

[Aeson]

So then why do we kill when we are unsure of whether we have a person or not.

I don't. Other people do not hold my same opinion though, they have different criteria, or different estimates on possibility.

You have a problem differentiating between opinion and truth. My opinion may very well be the truth, but it also may not. Judging people's actions based on my opinion is foolish, which is why I am not supreme dictator of the universe.

The fact is we do not know exactly when consciousness begins, or even how it works. I'm just honest with myself and say I don't know.

I still have an opinion, my 'best guess' as it were. My opinion will drive my actions. I'm not foolish enough to think that my opinion will (or even should) drive other's. They have their own best guess, and in cases where there is no absolute answer, the law should represent a consensus if it can be reached, or a compromise if it can't.

It's not enough to be uncertain when we are dealing with a matter of life or death, when our actions may result in the death of another person.

We don't have all the answers. Pretending that we do doesn't help, it just keeps us from doing what's necessary to find the actual answers.

If you are uncertain, I appreciate your honesty. But I think you can do better than this uncertainty, which is why I make the case that I do.

I don't mind you stating your opinion, but you consistantly disregard something I say to make an argument that doesn't apply or even agrees with something you just cut out of the quote. The only reason I converse with you is because you amaze me at how dishonest your quoting and rebuttal methods are. It's quite interesting.

If you want to convince me about what point abortion should be made illegal, I've already stated my criteria. The point of consciousness.

To know when that happens, I first need an explaination of how consciousness works. It should be testable, reproduceable, and applicable to creating sentient AI to show that it works.

Until that point, my uncertainty on when consciousness begins will remain as uncertainty.

[bipolarbear]

I'm all for that. Keep contraception and criminalise abortion. Improve the reproductive health of women.

At alst maybe there is hope for the Iraelis and the Palestinians! We have reached a point of contention!!!

But now for a nasty hypothetical. What if the contraceptives fail, and the woman should find herself pregnanant? yes/no legal/illegal damned/saved?

[Ben Kenobi]

If you want to convince me about what point abortion should be made illegal, I've already stated my criteria. The point of consciousness.

And I've already made the point that capacity for sentience is a better criteria than current consciousness.

I'm not trying to misquote you, merely trying to get a better and more consistent argument.

All I seem to get, is that consciousness ought to be the standard, but when pressed, you waffle to something that sounds better. You say that one can detect brain waves at 8 weeks, and then I ask if that is not proof of consciousness, then what counts?

Sure, you don't want to say that any abortions should be banned before the third trimester because of the possibility that the child may not have consciousness. But that's looking at things backwards. Is it not more correct to say that we should not kill a child because he or she may have consciousness after all?

That's the only point I've been trying to make for some time, but I'm unsure as to why you think I'm trying to trap you.

[Ben Kenobi]

What if the contraceptives fail, and the woman should find herself pregnanant? yes/no legal/illegal damned/saved?

Kids are a consequence of pregnancy. If you are not ready to take care of kids, don't have sex. Contraceptives may improve your odds, but they are not foolproof. Hence, even with contraceptives, one of the consequences of sex is still pregnancy. Therefore I think that even when contraceptives fail, that does not change the picture with respect to abortion. You knew the risks, you still chose to play the game, so you bear the consequences.

[Ben Kenobi]

Anyway, night all.

Aeson:

I hope you are not offended. I'm not trying to be dishonest, merely clarifying points I find problematic in your argument.

[bipolarbear]

Yeah, we agree again. I think people should know the risks. COndoms are genrally played up as a foolproof solution, but they're obviously not. I htink we need more sex ed in schools, but not so much in middle school. Middle Schoolers ARE NOT mature enough to handle even a Cheech and Chong movie, how cna they handle that?
Kids need to know both sides of the story so they can decide for themselves. The smae goes fro planned Parenthood. Thye don't tell about all of the risks involved, etc.