An Intellectual Discussion About Killing Babies

[Aeson]

Because you still fail to see that I never said detectable brain activity is consciousness. Such a claim would be ludicrous.

I said that without detectable brain activity there is very little chance (comparable to that of a plant) of there being consciousness, and so before that point there really isn't a question in my opinion.

At 8 weeks the probability starts to rise that there is consciousness. It isn't a 100% thing at 8 weeks, but a very low chance still. By the end of the 2nd trimester and start of the 3rd it's closing in on 100%.

I personally don't have the right to demand everyone view it the same way though. That question is up to society in general (and the laws/methods already in place) to decide. I can play a part of that, but I don't expect people to adhere to my opinion as law.

Personally, I will never have an abortion, and neither will my wife (she's non-existant, so it makes it easy to influence her decisions, and I would make sure any potential mate knew I do no plan on having children except through adoption). I view abortions after the second trimester as killing a person. I'm not quite sure how to view abortions before then, I just don't know the point where a fetus becomes conscious.

As such I am not going to condemn people based on a faulty knowlege of mine, or demand they adhere to my opinion. I'll leave that to others...

[bipolarbear]

True, but biology plays an important part.

I'm not saying it doesn't, but you did ask what other levels cna you discuss the issue on.

Good question. The bioethical definition of brain death is the irreverseable cessation of brain activity. (that word again.)

The key word is irreverseable. One can currently lack brain activity, but still be a person.

Now we must define brain activity, as it applies to life that has rights, or if all levels of brain activity indicate life.

That dodges my point on capacity not being the equivalent of manifestation. One can have the capacity yet not use the capacity.

So b/c someone has the capacity to kill does htat make the ma murderer?

The same applies here. Everyone deserves the right to live their life. Even unwanted unborn children. No one else can force that decision but them. Not even the mother.

So it is automatically the fetus's life, and the mother has no say in it? I feel that b/c it is her child, she has some say in its life.

[bipolarbear]

I personally don't have the right to demand everyone view it the same way though. That question is up to society in general (and the laws/methods already in place) to decide. I can play a part of that, but I don't expect people to adhere to my opinion as law.

Yes, many people forget wether they are arguing the moral, or the legal implications of it. I didn't really specify, b/c I think it enriches the discussion by not closing it off. Even if I did, the conversation always drifts over anyways.
It seems to me that, regardless of legality, people will have abortions, and so making it illegal is quite pointless, unless you need money, and fining people for abortions seems prudent. I'm not saying that everything should be run on thta basis, but I think abortion could be. I haven't realy thought this one out, so feel free tp balst me for all of the logical, moral, etc. holes in this argument.

[Ben Kenobi]

I just don't know the point where a fetus becomes conscious.

So then why do we kill when we are unsure of whether we have a person or not. If we were to hunt in the woods, do we pull the trigger before we know for sure? No.

It's not enough to be uncertain when we are dealing with a matter of life or death, when our actions may result in the death of another person.

I personally don't have the right to demand everyone view it the same way though. That question is up to society in general (and the laws/methods already in place) to decide. I can play a part of that, but I don't expect people to adhere to my opinion as law.

Well, someone has to decide what will be law and what will not be law. Everyone should stand up for what they believe to be right.

If you are uncertain, I appreciate your honesty. But I think you can do better than this uncertainty, which is why I make the case that I do.

[Aeson]

I think that it's important to have laws that we feel are just, even if in application they become pointless due to inability to police them properly. On one hand we are inept and trying, on the other we are inept and not true to ourselves.

For non-violent crimes I agree that fines should be the punishment. Incarceration should be reserved for protecting the populace from criminals who pose an actual physical threat.

[bipolarbear]

Well, someone has to decide what will be law and what will not be law. Everyone should stand up for what they believe to be right.

If you are uncertain, I appreciate your honesty. But I think you can do better than this uncertainty, which is why I make the case that I do.

The abortion thing is hard to just cast off as "oh let's make it legal" b/c so many people see ti as murder. I don't really, until the third trimester, but still its quite hard to define.
I take comfort though, in the fact that people are stnading up for what they see as murder.
Regarding the uncertainty, it is better though, to be uncertain, but in a state of consideration, rather than uncertain and in a state of stagnation.

[bipolarbear]

For non-violent crimes I agree that fines should be the punishment. Incarceration should be reserved for protecting the populace from criminals who pose an actual physical threat.

What about victimless crimes like smoking pot?

[Ben Kenobi]

So b/c someone has the capacity to kill does htat make the ma murderer?

One is not a murderer until one commits the murderer.

But personhood is something different. We are not the sum total of our actions, we are more than that. This is why the capacity argument works better than form and function. One can function in a similar way to which people do, yet one would not considered a person. A horse is much more physically impressive and imposing than an infant, yet we would not confuse the two.

People have a wide range of current abilities. In order to accomodate these differences requires a definition based on the intrinsic capacity. Otherwise, you end up having to exclude some born people as persons in order to satisfy your definition of personhood.

So it is automatically the fetus's life, and the mother has no say in it? I feel that b/c it is her child, she has some say in its life.

In his life, or her life. Yes, all mothers have a say. But they do not get to decide whether their infant will live or die. If they do so, they will be charged with infanticide.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

The reason I feel abortion should be kept legal is so that we are able to institute regulations and procedures.

If a woman fully wants to have an abortion and it is illegal, she will do whatever it takes to get that, even if it involves "alleyway" abortions.

This is why abortions should be legal...to prevent suffering to both mother and fetus.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Ben, have you ever stated what your opinion over rape or incest is?

[Ben Kenobi]

It seems to me that, regardless of legality, people will have abortions, and so making it illegal is quite pointless,

There are some real points. Laws influence morality. What one legislates often becomes morally correct, regardless of the true state. In banning abortion, you can drastically reduce the numbers performed. Poland has seen this in their own abortion rates, they have seen a substantial drop since they recriminalised abortion.

Now, another argument goes along the lines that there will always be people who murder each other. Does that mean we should not have any laws against murder?

[Ben Kenobi]

Emperor Fabulous:

Ben, have you ever stated what your opinion over rape or incest is?

Neither is a very good reason to kill a child.

In the case of incest, abortion covers up child abuse. Often the abuser will take the child in for an abortion, and the clinic workers will ensure that no one need find out.

In the case of rape, yes, the woman did not consent to have the child. But neither does the child consent to his mother. The child is not responsible for the rape, and has nowhere else to go, but inside the womb of his mother. Afterwards, if the woman wants to give up her child for adoption, she should, but until then, we should help the woman however we can.

[bipolarbear]

In his life, or her life. Yes, all mothers have a say. But they do not get to decide whether their infant will live or die. If they do so, they will be charged with infanticide.

But isn't the abortion debate a primarily moral debate? Isn't that jsut forcing you opinion about where life begins on people with different views? If carried out far enough, that could create a theocracy.(BTW on an unrelated note, how mnay actually successful theocracies have hteir been? I know of only Egypt.)

[Ben Kenobi]

For non-violent crimes I agree that fines should be the punishment. Incarceration should be reserved for protecting the populace from criminals who pose an actual physical threat.

I suppose I should clarify what I would consider appropriate punishment.

I don't think any woman should go to jail, because far too often the woman is the second victim, in her lack of informed consent, or because of other pressures put on her to abort.

I do think the doctors who profit off of abortion should face jail time. Similar penalties for them as for killing any other child.

[bipolarbear]

In banning abortion, you can drastically reduce the numbers performed. Poland has seen this in their own abortion rates, they have seen a substantial drop since they recriminalised abortion.

That is kind of a basic staemnet Ben. If you make and enforce, or at elast threaten to enforce a law, then people will folow it. All that really does is show that you have asuccessful government. Or that the laws are at least acceptable to the point were people don't revolt.
But on a more petinet note, how many "criminal" abortions are reported? I'd guess only those that are discovered. So obviously the rates would drop. Everything is now behing closed doors.