Vege

[Meticulous Man]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I think Ludd ignores the fact that human beings ARE superior. We can do this thing call reasoning. I haven't really seen dolphins build 50 story skyscrapers, melting down iron ore and turning it into steel. I'd say that makes us superior.

Besides, bears eat other animals. Lions eat other animals. Why can't we?

While there are predators that subsist on eating other animals, I don't think it necessarily follows that it's completely okay for us to kill and eat animals, especially if we have got other options. In my opinion, killing animals is most acceptable when it is in self-defense or when we have no other option than to subsist on meat.

[Az]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Like Europeans ARE superior to africans, native americans, ect...

Where your argument fails is that you CAN'T DEMONSTRATE that Europeans are superior, because every human being can reason and has used his/her reason. Animals have not shown themselves to be capable.

That's the natural role of bears and lions. But humans aren't carnivores.

Yes, we are omnivores. Our teeth are made for either flesh and plantlife. So our natural role is also to eat meat, but not solely meat. If we were not meant to eat meat, we would not be able to.

It seems that you have done a 360 in your view, though, when you are justifying your actions through that of a supposedly lesser or savage species.

If we are animals, then why be held to a higher standard in terms of food? Or the contrary is that we aren't the same as other animals and thus can eat lower species.

It's called covering both sides of argument and getting you in a trap that you cannot hope to get out of.

I think that this is the official 'Ludd is pwned' post.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think it necessarily follows that it's completely okay for us to kill and eat animals, especially if we have got other options.

Why not? Our teeth are built for eating plants and animals. Why should 'other options' matter? Because animals are cuter than plants? Plants feel pain as well.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


First, define "natural" and explain why that (as you seem to be saying) is an absolute concept.

You know what natural means. The reason it is an absolute concept is because... well, it's what makes life possible.

Second, humans aren't "naturally" carnivores any more so than they are "naturally" vegetarians. They are "naturally" omnivores, as anthropology tells us. So this point is moot.

Actually, humans are naturally vegetarians. We evolved on plants. We have no talons, no claws, no fangs, we have a terrible sense of smell and poor eyesight (in terms of animals that rely on it for hunting, anyways). We cannot hunt without tools.

Meat that was eaten, if any was eaten at all, would be strictly scavenged and would be a very minor part of the overall diet.

[Imran Siddiqui]

humans are naturally vegetarians.

Explain our teeth that can eat meat as well as plants then.

We have no talons, no claws, no fangs, we have a terrible sense of smell and poor eyesight (in terms of animals that rely on it for hunting, anyways). We cannot hunt without tools.

Our WEAPON is our reason, which allowed us to create these tools in order to hunt. Early man was hunter-gather. We picked some berries, but mostly killed animals to eat. Farming and a greater reliance on plantlife for food came later.

[Meticulous Man]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I don't think it necessarily follows that it's completely okay for us to kill and eat animals, especially if we have got other options.

Why not? Our teeth are built for eating plants and animals. Why should 'other options' matter? Because animals are cuter than plants? Plants feel pain as well.

Would killing other humans for food be ethical in your opinion? Feeling pain, at least the way we do, requires a network of neural cells that I don't think plants have.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Would killing other humans for food be ethical in your opinion? Feeling pain, at least the way we do, requires a network of neural cells that I don't think plants have.

No, it's been shown plant do indeed feel it. They just can't fight back.

And, personally, killing other humans for food wouldn't do it for me. If you want you can call me a speciesist (or something). Humanity is special as a result of our ability to reason. However, if it is necessary (think the movie "Alive"), then I'd have no objection to killing humans for food.

[Rogan Josh]

You can always rule humans out of the equation since we are of the same species - that alone distinguishes them from other animals.

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
No, it's been shown plant do indeed feel it.

Reference, please

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by General Ludd
You know what natural means. The reason it is an absolute concept is because... well, it's what makes life possible.

No, I don't know how you're using "natural." Define it. It is certainly not an absolute concept.

For someone whom I know believes in evolution over creationism, this is an astoundingly silly argument coming from you. There is no "absolute" design to natural entities. We have evolved to be omnivores, so it is as natural to us as being a carnivore is natural to a tiger.

Actually, humans are naturally vegetarians. We evolved on plants. We have no talons, no claws, no fangs, we have a terrible sense of smell and poor eyesight (in terms of animals that rely on it for hunting, anyways). We cannot hunt without tools.

Meat that was eaten, if any was eaten at all, would be strictly scavenged and would be a very minor part of the overall diet.

Now you're shifting terms. I never said carnivore, I said omnivore. They aren't the same thing. We aren't carnivore, but our physiology is decidedly omnivorous. Our teeth are proof of this, as is the fact that other primates are omnivorous as well. Whether or not meat was a minor part of a diet or not isn't the point--it was a part of the diet.

The fact that we can ingest and digest meat with little physiological trouble is itself proof we are ominvores by nature. Cows can't eat meat because it will kill them. We can it meat without any such fear.

[GePap]

I think our liver, capable of handling a wide range of foods also points to an omnivorous diet. Besides, if we were meant to be vegeterians, why the inability to break down cellulose?

No, human beings are most certainly omnivorous- for god's sake, look at the diet of all Stone Age peoples-look at the anthropological evidence-look at damned cave paintings.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Where your argument fails is that you CAN'T DEMONSTRATE that Europeans are superior, because every human being can reason and has used his/her reason. Animals have not shown themselves to be capable.

It wasn't long ago that africans where thought to possess no worthwhile intelligence.

But, again, this is saying that humans are superior because they posses the means to impose dominance ( I have already brought this up in the debate) and is still the same logic used by all oppresors and tyrants - that might makes right.

humans are naturally vegetarians.

Explain our teeth that can eat meat as well as plants then.

Our teeth aren't very well suited for eating animals, really. We can not easily tear flesh apart and we can't bite through bones and get at the marrow, ect..

But, as I said, it's possible that we also scavenged meat. That does not involve killing anything, however.

Our WEAPON is our reason, which allowed us to create these tools in order to hunt.

Isn't that what I just said? Our weapons are tools . ie. we are not naturally hunters.

No, it's been shown plant do indeed feel it. They just can't fight back.

It has been shown that plants when cut our eaten can send 'signals' to their roots that prompt growth. That is a pretty far cry from a nervous system.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

The fact that we can ingest and digest meat with little physiological trouble is itself proof we are ominvores by nature. Cows can't eat meat because it will kill them. We can it meat without any such fear.

Will eating meat actually kill them? I highly doubt it, unless they eat it in vast quantities-it should just pass trought the system relatively undigested. I am sure it would not be comfortable, but not deadly. After all, you can eat a bunch of grass and it won't kill you- you just won't digest any of it.

[Meticulous Man]

Plants do respond to physical stress but you don't really feel pain like we humans do without a nervous system. In any case plants do seem to be less aware than most animals, which makes it our best bet to prefer them if we're trying to eat ethically.

[GePap]

Many animals make use of tools, or build structures. Just becuase a birds nest is artificially created does not mean they are not a natural behavior. Archiological and anthropological data shows that tools being used by the Genus Homo predate modern Homo sapiens. How then can anyone justify a stance that hunting with weapons is "not natural" if it is behavior that predates the very species?