UN Slams Israel's killings of civillians - Only USA not in favour of vote.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Jamski


All Israeli attacks are against civillians. Either you have the Palastinian freedom fighters as terrorists, or as soldiers. You can't have it both ways.

There IS no such thing as a Palastinian millitary.

-Jam

I guess you will only see what you want to see... you will ignore that both sides are at fault... and instead only blame one side. If you can't see the death and destruction being caused by both sides, and that both sides are in the wrong, you will remain blind and there is no point in trying to have a real discussion.

So go ahead and continue advocating that people strap bombs to themselves and try to blow up as many innocent people as they can. I will continue to advocate peaceful solutions. I'll let people decide for themselves which path is the better one.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Jamski
I don't really see the need to take seriously the ideas of one who pretends to know more about the subject by using latin terms.

If you don't know the meanings of the terms or how they relate to the discussion at hand, ask. It's a pleasure to bring enlightenment to the ignorant masses.

[Jamski]

I guess you will only see what you want to see... you will ignore that both sides are at fault... and instead only blame one side. If you can't see the death and destruction being caused by both sides, and that both sides are in the wrong, you will remain blind and there is no point in trying to have a real discussion.

So go ahead and continue advocating that people strap bombs to themselves and try to blow up as many innocent people as they can. I will continue to advocate peaceful solutions. I'll let people decide for themselves which path is the better one.

I'm still not sure how seriously to take people in this forum, so sorry if I wasn't meant to bite - but that is not what I'm saying. Both sides are of course committing acts of violence, but the Israelis are the aggressors, the initiators of the cycle every time. I'm not saying "Yay! Suicide bombs!", but rather pointing out that every nation has a right to self defence, and that without anything better, suicide bombers are the only option they have.

Or do you think the French Resistance should have cooperated with the Nazis for a peaceful armistice?

If you don't know the meanings of the terms or how they relate to the discussion at hand, ask. It's a pleasure to bring enlightenment to the ignorant masses.

I think I'd rather look in a dictionary rather than be called an unenlightened ignoramus. I suppose you're of the opinion that Scire tuum nihil est, nisi te scire hoc sciat alter.

-Jam

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Jamski


All Israeli attacks are against civillians. Either you have the Palastinian freedom fighters as terrorists, or as soldiers. You can't have it both ways.

There IS no such thing as a Palastinian millitary.

-Jam

Civilian or military, they are combatants. If they are not military, and not attached in a recognized form to a military, they are illegal combatants and have no standing before the law. If they are military, they are guilty of war crimes for deliberate attacks on noncombatants. Either way, they're screwed.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Jamski
but the Israelis are the aggressors, the initiators of the cycle every time. I'm not saying "Yay! Suicide bombs!", but rather pointing out that every nation has a right to self defence, and that without anything better, suicide bombers are the only option they have.

First... it has ALWAYS been the Pals to be the first to break EVERY cease fire...

Second... even their own Arab brothers have denounced the fighting on both sides...

Third... please explain what the suicide bombers have acomplished beyond igniting a response that ends up with more of their own people dead, and not an inch closer to peace...

These are all simple facts which you seem to be ignoring.

[The Mad Monk]

He's just cheering them on, as they charge the meatgrinder.

[Jamski]

Civilian or military, they are combatants. If they are not military, and not attached in a recognized form to a military, they are illegal combatants and have no standing before the law. If they are military, they are guilty of war crimes for deliberate attacks on noncombatants. Either way, they're screwed.

NO!

There exists no formal state of war between Israel and Palestine. Therefore they are not, legally speaking, combatants.

They are regarded in international law as citizens and/or residents of the state of Israel. As civillians.

Legally your point is completely untrue.

Sorry about that old boy.

They are expected to be treated as any democratic government is expected to treat dissidents. That may, depending on the country, involve non-lethal use of force, tear gas etc. Use of millitary force to stop a riot? Big no no. And in legal terms this is just an ongoing overdone riot.

I suggest we continue this discussion when you are aware of the facts.

-Jam

[Sandman]

No, because they're operating from an unworkable position. If all-out war broke out, not only could they not win, they could not hold.

So it's a 'might makes right' argument. That's fair enough. But if the Arab countries ever get strong enough to defeat and occupy Israel, you'd say that the Israelis should move out? Or if the international community decides to impose heavy economic sanctions on Israel, destroying their economy, they should move out?

The Arab states don't care about them, except as a propaganda chip to keep their own populations angry at Israel instead of themselves;

So, uh, where are the Palestinians supposed to emigrate to? We're told that they're viewed as the Arab equivalent of trailer trash. They'd not find any welcome.

Like is claimed for the Israelis, they 'have nowhere else to go'.

[Sprayber]

The palastinians will never have anything more than what they have now as long as they allow terrorist to speak for them. They will remain backwards and starving and no amount of support from whiny euros or fashionable american liberals will change that. You guys talk and cheer while they blow themselves up. Of course it gives you a chance to moralize but not really helpful to the palistinians.

Terrorism is not solving the Palastinian problem, it only entrenches the postion of the conservatives in Isreal and silances anyone that might actually sympathise with the palastinian cause inside Isreal. They have let the culture of mayterdom and the fight against Isreal get in the way of the original goal. What kind of state would they create from such a legacy? One that the supporters of Palistinan terrorism could be proud of no doubt.

[The Mad Monk]

Actually, they're citizens of Jordan, if anything.

[Jamski]

First... it has ALWAYS been the Pals to be the first to break EVERY cease fire...

Completely untrue. This simply isn't true. You can't just make up facts like that.

Second... even their own Arab brothers have denounced the fighting on both sides...

Yes. True. Irrelevant, but true.

Third... please explain what the suicide bombers have acomplished beyond igniting a response that ends up with more of their own people dead, and not an inch closer to peace...

They have served to turn world opinon against the Israeli occupation of Palastine. They are working, believe me.

These are all simple facts which you seem to be ignoring.

Not at all.

-Jam

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sprayber
You guys talk and cheer while they blow themselves up. Of course it gives you a chance to moralize but not really helpful to the palistinians.

They're only killing Jewish civilians. Why should Agathon and Jamski care about such trivial things?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Jamski
Palestinian Suicide Bombers are bakers and farmers etc == Civillians


-Jam

More like young men (and occasional women) who have grown up in a culture of death that their parents and leaders are just as responsible for culitivating as any of the numerous bad things Isreal has done.

[The Mad Monk]

Of course they are combatants, they became combatants as soon as they fired that rifle or carried that bomb.

[Jamski]

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) - A 3-year-old Palestinian girl was shot dead Saturday as a senior U.N. official toured a battle-scarred refugee camp where Israeli troops continue the hunt for weapons-smuggling tunnels and militants.

The United Nations condemned the ``completely unacceptable'' destruction of houses, which has left 1,650 Palestinians homeless in the last 10 days.

In the West Bank, four people were wounded by a Palestinian suicide bomber near an Israeli army checkpoint.

On Friday, Israeli troops pulled back from the Brazil and Tel Sultan neighborhoods of Rafah, leaving behind dozens of damaged or destroyed buildings, torn-up roads and flattened cars. The army said it was redeploying forces and that its offensive - aimed at capturing militants and uncovering tunnels that stretch across the nearby Egyptian border - would continue.

Peter Hansen, head of the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, visited the two areas Saturday. A few shops opened so residents could stock up, and people ventured tentatively outside, waving white flags and strips of cloth.

Despite the partial withdrawal of troops, bursts of machine-gun fire could be heard as Hansen toured a street littered with clothes, mattresses and the collapsed corrugated tin roofs of devastated houses.

``The human price has been extremely high for this operation,'' Hansen said.

He said 1,650 Palestinians had been made homeless over the past 10 days of the operation, including a brief Israeli incursion into Rafah last week. More than 11,000 Rafah residents have been made homeless by Israeli demolitions since 2000.

Municipal officials said at least 43 homes were demolished and dozens more damaged in the camp this week. The army said five houses were destroyed after they were used as cover by militants to attack troops.

``I think that the destruction is probably even worse than I've seen ... and is indeed completely, completely unacceptable,'' Hansen said.

In Tel Sultan, where workers struggled to restore water and electricity supplies and clear sewage from the streets, some angry residents refused to speak to the U.N. envoy.

``People want actions and not words,'' said resident Sami Khateeb. ``We don't want food, all we need is to live like human beings, the world should feel our suffering, they should act to end this aggression.''

Forty-one Palestinians have been killed since ``Operation Rainbow'' began Tuesday, including gunmen and eight demonstrators hit by a tank shell during a protest march.

A 3-year-old girl was killed Saturday in the Brazil neighborhood while Hansen's delegation was in the area. Relatives said Rawan Mohammed Abu Zeid was killed by a gunshot to the head as she walked to a shop to buy candy.

``We were playing in the house when she told me she wanted some candy,'' said her brother Diyab Abu Zeid, 19, crying uncontrollably on the telephone. ``The older kids in the neighborhood were going to the store so I let her go with them.

``There was no one in the street but the kids, not even other adults,'' he added.

The army said it had no reports of shots being fired in the area.

Israel says its offensive has resulted in the arrest of dozens of militants and the killing of a local leader of the armed group Hamas. The army also said it had discovered one arms-smuggling tunnel during the operation.

Overnight, tanks, jeeps and bulldozers moved into a sparsely populated area on the outskirts of the town of Rafah, next to the camp, witnesses and Palestinian security forces said. Farmer Barakat Abu Halaweh, 40, said armored vehicles flattened greenhouses and chicken coops and ordered him and his family of 15 to leave their house for three days.

Mahmoud Zahar, a Hamas leader in Gaza, said the Israeli offensive ``will escalate the resistance and will increase the commitment of the Palestinian people to pursue the path of Jihad and steadfastness.''

Palestinian officials said Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman would meet Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on Monday, presumably to discuss the crisis in Rafah. Israel has accused Egypt of not doing enough to halt the smuggling across its border with Gaza.

In a message to a summit of Arab leaders in Tunis, Arafat urged the international community to pressure Israel back to the negotiating table. He said military force ``will not provide peace, security and stability for Israelis, but peace will, for a flourishing future for our children and theirs.''

Israel is under intense diplomatic pressure to end the offensive and refrain from the sweeping demolition of Palestinian homes.

A key objective of the military operation is the widening of an Israeli patrol road between Rafah and the Egyptian border, which would make it more difficult for weapons smugglers to dig tunnels. Widening the road would require the demolition of dozens of Palestinian houses, a plan criticized by the United Nations, the European Union and the United States.

Israeli officials said Attorney General Meni Mazuz believed the road-widening plan would not hold up in local and international courts, and that he told the army to come up with alternatives that would cause less destruction.

A suicide bomber blew himself up at an Israeli army checkpoint east of the West Bank city of Nablus on Saturday, wounding four people, the Israeli military and paramedics said. Military sources said one soldier was slightly wounded and three Palestinians hurt, one seriously.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine militant group claimed responsibility for the bombing in a call to The Associated Press, saying it was a response to the Rafah incursion

And the killing goes on right as we type.

This is what Dino, Monk, Ming et al, are supporting. The independant Palastinian organisation strikes back by targeting soldiers. The Israelis kill children.

-Jam