UN Slams Israel's killings of civillians - Only USA not in favour of vote.

[The Mad Monk]

You know what, Jamski? If what is going over there does not meet your definition of war, I just don't accept your definition of war. Neither do the Israelis or Palestinians, both of whom regard it very much as a war.

I am now very tired, and I am going to bed. Goodnight.

[Jamski]

Gee... your point seem to be that Pals can defend themselves, but the Israelis can't... not everyone as you so claim.

Of course the Israelis can defend themselves. But you don't "defend" yourself by invading another country and holding its people prisoner, while regulary shelling, shooting, starving and bombing them.

And as I KEEP saying - of course peace is to be preferred. The Israelis need to stop defending themselves so aggressively.

To go back to my simple analogy. Would you consider it "defending yourself" to kill everyone that might pose a threat to you?

-Jam

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Jamski
Kamakazis were serving soldiers in the Japanese Air Force != Civillians
Palestinian Suicide Bombers are bakers and farmers etc == Civillians

nice , but wrong.

Palestinian suicide bombers are active members in palestinian militant resistance groups. != civilians.

Heck, some palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists are active members in palestinain security forces. != civilians.

Just because they do not (as morally required) wear uniforms and avoid hiding in civilian population - does not make them civilians.

Furthermore, most active terrorist members dedicate most of their time to it. Being a member of an underground guerilla organziation, especially being on the run from Israel, does take its toll on your free time.

In hours? Probably 2-300. The benefits of unemployment is lots of free time to read stuff that interests you.

-Jam

good then.

Lets assume I have been reading up on the issue from books, newspapers, internet sites, and other documents, 1 hour per day.

That would be 300 days. Let's assume I don't read on saturdays - that means that I have read the same amount in the last year alone.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Jamski
Yes.

In a binary system, where an organisation is millitary or not, they are not millitary.

Again, nice but false.

This is not a binary system.

The Hamas, Jihad and what ever are paramilitary-systems.

While the palestinian terrorists in thier military structures are military / "policing" systems.

Just because they refuse to wear unfiroms, dose not make them civilian.

A civilian is a non-militant, which has nothing physically to do with conflict.

Or if you want them to be classified as millitary, you have to treat this as a proper war in Israel, treat Palestine as a real country and stop calling the Palestinians terrorists.

Your call

-Jam

Again false analogies.

There is no relations between the definition of militant powers (ie militias / militaries) and their relation to statehood.

Most militaries existed before statehood, and belonged to private people / groups.


Furthermore, the Palestinian terrorists are infact para-militaries / guerilla fighters.

They are labeled terrorists as description of their strategy : using guerilla tactics against civilian targets in order to create a hype of fear and press the political leadership to wanted steps.


Whether they are an organized military or an improvised para-military, doesn't mean jack sh*t - they are still terrorists, as it describes their strategy.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Jamski
Of course the Israelis can defend themselves. But you don't "defend" yourself by invading another country and holding its people prisoner, while regulary shelling, shooting, starving and bombing them.

And you don't talk peace:
by having has your goal the elimination of Israel...
targeting innocent people with suicide bombers...

As I've said before, whether it was the right thing or not to create the state of Israel... it does exist.

The Arabs have on multiple occasions attacked and have been the aggressors... they used adjoining land to continue attacks into the country... and gee, Israel removed that option in the process of defending themselves... no real surprise. So some could call it an act of self defense, and others will call it an act of agression.

My point is that I don't really care anymore how you want to put your spin on it... what I care about is that it stops. And if the killing continues on both sides, it won't. Suicide bombing isn't working... Over agressive responses by Israel isn't working... They are BOTH WRONG. There is no right anymore. They need to agree to a cease fire and actually mean it. They need to sit down and hammer out a fair deal that both can live with. The majority of the people there want just that.

[Sirotnikov]

Of course the Israelis can defend themselves. But you don't "defend" yourself by invading another country and holding its people prisoner, while regulary shelling, shooting, starving and bombing them.

IDF has a defensive doctorine which demands attacks on the operational level and moving the battlefield to the enemy's land.

You can read it on the IDF website.

Defending is more than *raising shield over head*. It is also *hitting back with the force necessary to make your opponent stop attacking*.

And as I KEEP saying - of course peace is to be preferred. The Israelis need to stop defending themselves so aggressively.

we've tried petting and kisses on Hamas members. It didn't work.

we've also tried no-reacting and let the PA to act against Hamas members. It didn't work either.

In 2001, we've decided we had enough.

To go back to my simple analogy. Would you consider it "defending yourself" to kill everyone that might pose a threat to you?

Again why do you use the word "might"?

Do Hamas members "might" pose a threat?

No they already do. That's why they will be killed.

[Sirotnikov]

Over agressive responses by Israel isn't working

sure it does.

there's a reason why suicide bombings in Israel have become such a rarity.

Hamas and PIJ leadership in the territories is now very weak, and has troubles.

Gaza has been a different story until recently.

[Ming]

But Sirnotnikov... while the suicide bombings may indeed be down, you are no closer to a lasting peace... which is what people want. So no, it isn't working.

[Pax]

Two sites that offer differing viewpoints. https://www.larouchepub.com/other/20...slo_mrdrd.html and www.yahoodi.com/peace/oslo.html.
It sounds as if all parties have agreed to Isreal's right to exist. So that really should be a non issue. The problem is whether or not the Palestinian's have a right to a state. The agreement in the Oslo peace accord's seem pretty fair to me. I believe that the U.N. should be used to enforce the treaty instead of Isreal soldiers. I think that Palestinians should have a neutral party guarantee their security. Until they learn to get along the Isreali's need to stay out. The Palestinians argued that the Isreali's wanted them to fight each other. That would have led to a further dividing of the Palestinian people. Maybe the Isreali's should increase the security inside Isreal proper and let the U.N. be responsible for security in Palestinian areas. The U.S. should avoid troop involvement like the plague. It would probably be best to use soldiers that have no prior links to the M.E. situation. No coalition forces. No arab forces, but some muslim forces.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Jamski


All Israeli attacks are against civillians. Either you have the Palastinian freedom fighters as terrorists, or as soldiers. You can't have it both ways.

There IS no such thing as a Palastinian millitary.

-Jam

You are proving your ignorance over and over Jamsk.

First, terrorists are militants / combatants and are therefore non-civilians.

Civilians by definition are people that have nothing to do with fighting.

And there is such thing as a Palestinian military - the national security brigades which consist of over 40,000 people, all on the paycheck of the PA, and have had their weapons supplied by Israel in 1994.

I guess your ~200 hours of reading didn't give you that, did they?

[Sirotnikov]

Israel is illegally occupying another coutry and should get the hell out.

Please provide proof of a country existing there, and I'll get out.

In the meantime, we are occupatying a people with wishes for self-proclamnation and self-governance, and a dispute with Israel about its borders.

If they get suicide bombed after sending in tanks and 'copters - then what did they expect? Everyone should be allowed to defend themself.

Yes. You're right.

I think that everyone should be allowed to defend themselves against innocent civilians riding the bus, or innocent civilians in discotheques. You know how dangerous those are!

[Sirotnikov]

NO!
There exists no formal state of war between Israel and Palestine. Therefore they are not, legally speaking, combatants.

They are regarded in international law as citizens and/or residents of the state of Israel. As civillians.

Legally your point is completely untrue.

Sorry about that old boy.

again nonsense.

you are abusing your dictionary.

War is armed conflict between two groups with different agendas.

Since the palestinian terrorists are a group with a different agenda and are initiating armed conflict they are infact combatants / warriors.

You seem to live in a fictionary binary world, where only countries have militaries and only they wage wars.

Describe then please the Kurdish rebel movement in Iraq? Are they civilians?

Was the northern alliance in Afghanistan civilians?

They are expected to be treated as any democratic government is expected to treat dissidents. That may, depending on the country, involve non-lethal use of force, tear gas etc. Use of millitary force to stop a riot? Big no no. And in legal terms this is just an ongoing overdone riot.

LOL

Remind me the last time "dissidents" that used explosives against innocent civilians were treated with 'non-lethal' force.

[Sirotnikov]

But Sirnotnikov... while the suicide bombings may indeed be down, you are no closer to a lasting peace... which is what people want. So no, it isn't working.

We are closer to lasting peace than we were after the Park hotel bombing in 2002.

As long as there is terrorism, the Israeli public is very far from peace, and eventually, any peace accord (I'm not even going to address the imaginary option of true lasting peace) will be accepted or rejected by them, as a party.

Furthermore, after operation Defensive Shield in 2002 in the west bank, the palestinian population and politicians there moved a step closer to peace - realising more and more that it is futile to continue terrorising Israel.

True, the hardcore of terrorists remains, but Israeli incursions infact made most palestinians think over their stance and lean back towards non-violent protest.

I know that as a fact.

[Sirotnikov]

I believe that the U.N. should be used to enforce the treaty instead of Isreal soldiers.

Yes, like they are safely securing the Israeli Lebanese borders and preventing terrorist attacks.

Oh wait...

- 3 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
- Israeli homes were shelled by rockets
- Israeli soldiers on border posts were attacked
- Lebanese terrorists linked to Hizbullah penetrated Israel and murdered innocent civilians.

Right.

That UN?

You mean the UN which folded its tail between its legs and ran away from Iraq?

That god d*mn f*cking b*tch?

[Sirotnikov]

If I'm in your house with a gun, and I tell you what to do. Maybe I shoot your kid, and say that your house should belong to me, and you try to punch me, does that mean we are equally in the wrong?

-Jam

lets have a more correct story:

An Israeli enters a neighbourhood with arabs and builds a house. He is threatened to leave and then attacked. He wins. His neighbours, meanwhile building their own house in the same yard run away in fear of retribution. The Israeli takes their house and makes it a garage.

Then the Palestinian begin harassing the Israeli and attacking him. To which he attacks them back. So the Palestinians kill his children. The Israeli attacks him back, and misses and kills one of the Pal's children. While he tries to say "I'm sorry" the Palestinian shoots the Israeli elderly parents and escapes.


Yeah.
This story is closer to reality.