CanPol: Conservative Platform

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The democrats are not hostile of Christianity so long as Christianity is kept in a closet, out of the way. Their only objection is to those who actively practice their faith.

By which you mean, of course, those who don't quite draw the line between religion and politics...

Hmm, the Democrats are sounding better and better.

[joncha]

Originally posted by Agathon


Most people did. He was a well respected leader throughout the world. In fact almost everywhere except Western Canada and certain parts of Quebec.

Certain parts? You mean... like the ones he sicced the tanks on?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon


Most people did. He was a well respected leader throughout the world. In fact almost everywhere except Western Canada and certain parts of Quebec.

Echoes of Thatcher.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Do they now? I would ask for evidence that they say such a thing.

They believe that Canadian government should be based on biblical laws. That's their religious laws.

[Ben Kenobi]

those who don't quite draw the line between religion and politics...

Why should one set of beliefs be privileged over another? If a person is religious, he should also be able to express his convictions in politics.

If he's Catholic, he ought to be able to disapprove of certain things like contraception just like people are allowed to support contraception.

One man's beliefs are not going to set policy for an entire country, unless the people also agree with the idea. So what do you have to fear from the Christians?

[Ben Kenobi]

They believe that Canadian government should be based on biblical laws. That's their religious laws.

So? How are they going to force their laws on the people of Canada? They may want a biblically based Canada, but that doesn't mean that they can accomplish this without a mandate from the people.

If you disagree with them, that's fair enough. Don't vote for them, and don't support their policies. But at least give them credit for not giving up on Canada.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So? How are they going to force their laws on the people of Canada? They may want a biblically based Canada, but that doesn't mean that they can accomplish this without a mandate from the people.

Yes, obviously they need to get elected to carry out their policies.

The point is that the CH are a lunatic fringe group whose idea of Canada is completely out of whack with the beliefs of most Canadians. Their attitudes do not add balance any more than the creation of a Canadian Fascist Party would add balance.

You claim it is important that they exist when their existance is meaningless. The vast majority do not want a biblically based government so the CH is just pissing into the wind.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
But at least give them credit for not giving up on Canada.

You got it completely wrong. The CH has given up on Canada.

It is turning its back on the Canada that says everyone is entitled to live their lives as they see fit. The Canada where people are not forced to conform. The Canada where just because I am not a Christian does not mean that I am a second-class citizen.

The CH are the types of people who want to return to "the good ol' days" that in reality were not that great. What they want is an imaginary Canada where everyone went to church on Sunday, where homosexuals stayed in the closet, where minorities kept quiet and Natives became "civilised Christians".

The CH doesn't recognise that Canada today is a great nation where people can be fundamentalist, bible thumping Christians or new age Wiccans. Canada is a nation where people are allowed to be individuals.

Edit: Although if you don't like hockey, then you ain't a true Canadian.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Why should one set of beliefs be privileged over another? If a person is religious, he should also be able to express his convictions in politics.

If he's Catholic, he ought to be able to disapprove of certain things like contraception just like people are allowed to support contraception.

One man's beliefs are not going to set policy for an entire country, unless the people also agree with the idea. So what do you have to fear from the Christians?

Reverse that, Ben. Assume that one day a majority of our country are Muslims. Do we want the Sharia as law?

Can you see how the rules of any one religion could choke in the throats of all who are not adherents?

Review the history of Germany, England, or even our very own Canada if you want to see why politics and religion should be seperate. That does not mean that religious people should not be in politics. It means that religion should not be the basis of any given public policy.

[Ben Kenobi]

whose idea of Canada is completely out of whack with the beliefs of most Canadians.

So, the only ones who should have a say are those who fit into the majority? Sounds awfully tolitarian to me.

Their attitudes do not add balance any more than the creation of a Canadian Fascist Party would add balance.

There are plenty of people in Canada who agree with the Christian Heritage party. Ergo, the party adds balance since they provide a different perspective than the major parties.

Call me a crazy, but I would say the same for a Fascist party. Just because one disagrees with their sentiments does not mean that they have nothing to contribute. A blind horse can find water, and can often point out things that everyone else is unwilling to see. Remember the Emperor's clothes? We have a naked emperor, but everyone has to keep quiet to avoid offending him.

You claim it is important that they exist when their existance is meaningless. The vast majority do not want a biblically based government so the CH is just pissing into the wind.

Just because one speaks for few does not mean that one speaks for none. It is the mark of a tolitarian government that denigrates the few to the benefit of the majority.

It is turning its back on the Canada that says everyone is entitled to live their lives as they see fit.

So the Christian heritage party would make religion compulsory? I do not see that in any of their manifestos, and you have yet to provide any evidence of their policies.

The Canada where just because I am not a Christian does not mean that I am a second-class citizen.

As opposed to a Canada where Christians are second-class citizens? We are already there, Tingkai. A party that advocates the restoration of this balance can hardly be faulted for their focus.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why should one set of beliefs be privileged over another? If a person is religious, he should also be able to express his convictions in politics.

Where have I said otherwise?

However, being an atheist, I happen to disagree with any and all theological justifications for positions on certain issues.

If he's Catholic, he ought to be able to disapprove of certain things like contraception just like people are allowed to support contraception.

And I ought to be able not to vote for him.

One man's beliefs are not going to set policy for an entire country, unless the people also agree with the idea. So what do you have to fear from the Christians?

Policies to which I am diametrically opposed being implemented?

[Ben Kenobi]

Assume that one day a majority of our country are Muslims. Do we want the Sharia as law?

No, I would not. Neither would I want a policy of forced conscription that has happened in many states, and has forced Mennonites to leave for another country.

If the majority of the people vote for Sharia, than under what grounds can they be denied?

Can you see how the rules of any one religion could choke in the throats of all who are not adherents?

Yes, I do. But it is not merely 'religion' that has forced these problems. Some of the most staunchly secular governments have faced similar problems. One need only look at the current policies of China and the Former Soviet Union towards religion to see this truth.

Review the history of Germany, England, or even our very own Canada if you want to see why politics and religion should be seperate.

Actually, the only thing a seperation between the church and state entails, is the preventation from the establishment of any one church over another. It has nothing to do with religion informing public policy.

It means that religion should not be the basis of any given public policy.

Disagree. It is possible for someone who is a believer to speak out on issues of public policy and to articulate how the policy ought to work in society without being immediately harassed for doing so. We ought not force the believer to separate 'religion' from secular causes.

[Ben Kenobi]

Policies to which I am diametrically opposed being implemented?

Then don't vote for these folks.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No, I would not. Neither would I want a policy of forced conscription that has happened in many states, and has forced Mennonites to leave for another country.

If the majority of the people vote for Sharia, than under what grounds can they be denied?

How about the fact that it's tyranny of the majority?

The Jews were a minority in Nazi Germany.

Disagree. It is possible for someone who is a believer to speak out on issues of public policy and to articulate how the policy ought to work in society without being immediately harassed for doing so. We ought not force the believer to separate 'religion' from secular causes.

Why not? We're the voters. Hell, you're SUPPOSED to "harass" people you disagree with.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then don't vote for these folks.

That's my point, BK. That I find them immensely distasteful.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
You claim it is important that they exist when their existance is meaningless. The vast majority do not want a biblically based government so the CH is just pissing into the wind.

You got it completely wrong. The CH has given up on Canada.

It is turning its back on the Canada that says everyone is entitled to live their lives as they see fit. The Canada where people are not forced to conform. The Canada where just because I am not a Christian does not mean that I am a second-class citizen.

The CH are the types of people who want to return to "the good ol' days" that in reality were not that great. What they want is an imaginary Canada where everyone went to church on Sunday, where homosexuals stayed in the closet, where minorities kept quiet and Natives became "civilised Christians".

The CH doesn't recognise that Canada today is a great nation where people can be fundamentalist, bible thumping Christians or new age Wiccans. Canada is a nation where people are allowed to be individuals.

Edit: Although if you don't like hockey, then you ain't a true Canadian.

Their existence is meaningless? Given up on Canada? Forced to conform?

What are we to make of your venom towards people who exercise their freedom of conscience, their freedom of expression, and their political freedoms, not to mention their responsibility as citizens to get involved?

I know why it is important to keep government above the grasping hands of any given religion, but at the same time I question the Canadianess of suggesting that people shut up and sit quiet on the sidelines because their views may not be popular.

We need religious people to speak up and step forward. We need to address them as to why we believe their dogmatic views should not be the basis of policy. We should not abuse them and thereby drive them into a sullen resistence.