CanPol: Conservative Platform

[notyoueither]

I meant the roill eyes, Ben. I usually don't do it, but when you said 'the post says nothing about religion'...

As for the second part, I can see your point. However, religions are not very well renowned for urging behavior based on reason. The problem is that if your reason for proposing a law is because of the 'divine' nature of some subscribed 'truth' in an ancient text, you are most likely proceeding down some very dangerous roads.

Canadians by and large do not want dogma to be determining factors in our laws and public policies. That is why we shun any who bring any church into politics off the bat, no matter how good their cause.

In short, a majority of Canadians think it best to exclude religious arguments from determing what is best for Canadian society. To do that we exclude those who take those positions.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The Heritage folks are very right, that in order to accomodate certain people, will require the party to give up everything that makes them distinctive and attractive to voters.

I hope that you continue to believe this because this is what has kept the conservatives out of office for years.

Conservatives, and NDP for that matter, tend to think "What are our core principles that we will never compromise".

The Liberals tend to say "What are the issues that can unite us."

The Conservative/NDP approach is a recipie for alienation. The Liberal approach is the way to win elections. The Liberals may not be able to do everything they want, but they end up being able to do more than the Conservatives and NDP.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Conservatives, and NDP for that matter, tend to think "What are our core principles that we will never compromise".

The Liberals tend to say "What are the issues that can unite us."

The Conservative/NDP approach is a recipie for alienation. The Liberal approach is the way to win elections. The Liberals may not be able to do everything they want, but they end up being able to do more than the Conservatives and NDP.

Very good. *clap clap clap*

I couldn't agree more when it comes to national party politics.

[Ben Kenobi]

said 'the post says nothing about religion'...

It's an argument from analogy, rather than any commentary about religion, or the role of religion in a party.

I'm looking more at what it means for a party, and the differences between the Heritage party and the Conservatives. Like a congregation there are certain things that cannot be compromised on, without losing the identity of the party. Where the debate rages is over what constitutes the identity of the party.

a majority of Canadians think it best to exclude religious arguments from determing what is best for Canadian society.

Why? Do they believe that religion plays no positive role in Canadian society?

The problem is that if your reason for proposing a law is because of the 'divine' nature of some subscribed 'truth' in an ancient text, you are most likely proceeding down some very dangerous roads.

No, I agree. However, for these two social issues, there are also good secular arguments as well. Otherwise, why do you see non-Christians who do not support gay marriage or abortion? If the support merely comes from sacred texts, then we should also see disagreement between groups with different texts.

[notyoueither]

*In weather reports, it is reported that the iceshelf of Hell advanced 10 feet today. Blizzards are predicted.*

[Ben Kenobi]

The Liberals may not be able to do everything they want, but they end up being able to do more than the Conservatives and NDP.

Yeah, they are such hotbeds of creativity with regards to public policy. What's the last original idea they have come up with?

The Liberals have swung too far over...

However,

Conservatives, and NDP for that matter, tend to think "What are our core principles that we will never compromise".

The Liberals tend to say "What are the issues that can unite us."

Is precisely the point I'm trying to get at. What are the beliefs that unify Conservatives, yet make them distinctive?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I couldn't agree more when it comes to national party politics.

Somethings weird when NYE and I agree with each other.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


It's an argument from analogy, rather than any commentary about religion, or the role of religion in a party.

I'm looking more at what it means for a party, and the differences between the Heritage party and the Conservatives. Like a congregation there are certain things that cannot be compromised on, without losing the identity of the party. Where the debate rages is over what constitutes the identity of the party.

What we can all agree on is 'good government'. Looking after the interests of the nation through a stronger economy with less government intervention. We can agree that less taxation and smaller government would be good ideas in principle. We can agree that the state of government care for the Canadian Forces is a joke, and that the defence of Canada from natural disasters should be doable at the very least. Being able to honour treaty commitments would be a bonus. We can agree that the theory de jour re criminal justice may not be the best thing to experiment with in the penal system. We can agree that better government through reform of Parliament is highly desirable (actually, if Ontario ever really votes for this it will be a decisive victory; the next Free Trade).

What we cannot agree on is that canon law should inform federal law. Sorry. There's just no way that Tories will agree to that.

Why? Do they believe that religion plays no positive role in Canadian society?

Didn't say that. I said religion should not form the basis of public policy. Religious organizations do a lot of very good things, and they should continue to do them by all means.

No, I agree. However, for these two social issues, there are also good secular arguments as well. Otherwise, why do you see non-Christians who do not support gay marriage or abortion? If the support merely comes from sacred texts, then we should also see disagreement between groups with different texts.

Argue it on secular grounds and there would be no problem. However, keep in mind there are conservatives who are pro-choice and pro-gay rights. Don't expect your views to not be devisive whether stated based on religion or not.

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't expect your views to not be devisive whether stated based on religion or not.

No worries about that.

[Ben Kenobi]

What about scrapping the GST?

What about scrapping the gun registry?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yeah, they are such hotbeds of creativity with regards to public policy. What's the last original idea they have come up with?

What's that got to do with anything? The Libs look around and what do people want? During the early 90s, the Reform Party was gaining votes by campaigning on a balanced budget platform. The Libs saw this and balanced the budget, which left the Reformers with nothing to sell.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The Liberals have swung too far over...

People have been saying that for years, and usually the left says the Libs are moving too far right, and the right says the Libs are moving too far left.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Is precisely the point I'm trying to get at. What are the beliefs that unify Conservatives, yet make them distinctive?

Come off it. In your world view, a conservative is someone who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriages. These are divisive issues.

What would unify the Conservatives, and gain votes, is to campaign on: smaller government and a balanced budget with lower taxes. That's what the right wing has done in the States (even though they then created bigger government and gigantic debt.

For the NDP, we need to look at how do we achieve our core value of ensuring workers get paid properly. One way to do that is to recognise that the worker who becomes an owner is more likely to become prosperous. So the NDP should work on behalf of people who own SMEs. We should encourage more workers buying part of their companies.

In other words, the NDP needs to get rid of its anti-business image.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What about scrapping the GST?

What about scrapping the gun registry?

No one will believe politicians who say they're going to get rid of the GST.

Gun registry is old news.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What about scrapping the GST?

What about scrapping the gun registry?

GST? No. I happen to think it is a very good tax. *ducks*

The gun registry? It's a goner, definitely.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
People have been saying that for years, and usually the left says the Libs are moving too far right, and the right says the Libs are moving too far left.

It reminds me of Aggy saying CTV and the CBC are right wing.

[Ben Kenobi]

What's that got to do with anything? The Libs look around and what do people want?

Why can't other parties do the same? What's so special about the Liberals? If they can only borrow policies, then they have nothing to offer Canada.

and usually the left says the Libs are moving too far right, and the right says the Libs are moving too far left.

It has nothing with 'right' or 'left'

The NDP can be just as bad as the Conservatives on this point.

That's what the right wing has done in the States

So that's why Martin campaigns on the difference between a 'compassionate' society, and the US?

That would be like me saying that the NDP should polish up their environmentalist credentials by promoting increased tariffs to ensure that proper evironmental standards should be met by all countries that trade with Canada.