The foundation of modern christianity

[Aeson]

I think the ones they give out for free are standard KJV without crossreferencing or the Joseph Smith translation.

[Dr Strangelove]

Yes, I think it's the KJV that they advertise on TV. They give it out along with the Book of Mormon in the hopes of luring folks who would like a free Bible into accepting the Book of Mormon simultaneously. If they give out the KJV how can they claim that it's corrupted? Wouldn't that be sorta like the John Birchers giving out copies of the Communist Manifesto along with the Bill of Rights?

[SnowFire]

Some random comments:

"catholic" does refer to the church as a whole (heck, you see it on things like the Nicene Creed); "Catholic" usually refers to the RCC, at least in my head.

Dr. Strangelove: Nobody says they have to be consistent. Besides, the LDS have changed quite a bit. A friend of mine found an absolutely hillarious pamphlet from them back in the ~60s or so, when civil rights was starting to get going. It explained how God had his own special plan for the lesser races, and well, you know, there's no shame in a lower destiny! Nothing wrong with working the ground and all! That kinda stuff. It was their attempt to try and reach out and explain their position- ironically enough, probably a softening of it.

That said, they've done some serious missionary work overseas, so who knows.

[Aeson]

Corrupt isn't the right word. Missing many of the "plain and simple truths" is the phrase used very often in describing the Bible by Mormons. That is not to say they don't find value in the Bible, it is still considered a holy scripture.

The Mormon interpretation of various passages is rather different too. A lot of times this is based off the Joseph Smith translation but not necessarily. The verses Verto quoted are a good example, as most other Christians will vehemently deny they point to a full apostasy and Mormons use them to support the Joseph Smith story. Another example is the "tend to other flocks" reference that Jesus makes which Mormons use to validate the Book of Mormon, which is generally interpreted by other Christians to refer to Gentiles. (Nephites/Lamanites in the BoM being of Jewish decent)

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Anacyreon:

Can one sin by not doing what one ought to be doing, by omission as well as commission?

By ignoring the connection between thought and action, one neglects an important element of sin. Sin is purposefully done. The will must be involved in order for sin to be involved. By saying that one need only do the wrong action, you condemn those who do so inadvertently.

I understand the idea to draw an earlier line in the mind as a precaution lest that any malicious thought be translated into action.

But this is different from the assertion that thinking of sin does not actually make you a sinner. Committing a sin does. If you can fend off the "sinful thought", then fine. But if you don't or can't, all the while not translating the thought into action (in effect making a decision not to commit sin), it's only natural that you are not a sinner.

This does not preclude the special condition of those who commit sin inadvertantly, as you suggest, because a God that's ultimately just knows the circumstance surrounding the act.

I guess the difference of opinion here is doctrinal if one still insists thinking makes a sinner, in which case I just wanted to put in my perspective as a point of comparison on this .

[Verto]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Yes, I think it's the KJV that they advertise on TV. They give it out along with the Book of Mormon in the hopes of luring folks who would like a free Bible into accepting the Book of Mormon simultaneously. If they give out the KJV how can they claim that it's corrupted? Wouldn't that be sorta like the John Birchers giving out copies of the Communist Manifesto along with the Bill of Rights?

Aeson hit it right on the head:

Missing many of the "plain and simple truths" is the phrase used very often in describing the Bible by Mormons. That is not to say they don't find value in the Bible, it is still considered a holy scripture.

When we make the statement that the Bible was changed/corrupted/mistranslated, some people will get the impression we are trashing it, or we are trying to replace it with the Book of Mormon. Neither is the case.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
Whereas, in Islam, it's not a sin until you give in to your "temptation" or "entertainment" and actually do something to that butt .

Thinking of something or entertaining it (regardless of how trivial the difference between the two) does not make one a sinner, doing it makes. I find this approach more reasonable and sensible .

Thoughts are not always acted on consciously, as the consequence of a neat rational chain of logic. Often a subtle desire or hidden urge will, when nurtured with fantasy, keep growing and growing until it manifests itself in passive-aggressive behavior, minor rudeness, or other "nice" forms of evil. You can't fail to control even your mind and honestly expect to control the rest of your body.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Verto


Aeson hit it right on the head:

Missing many of the "plain and simple truths" is the phrase used very often in describing the Bible by Mormons. That is not to say they don't find value in the Bible, it is still considered a holy scripture.

When we make the statement that the Bible was changed/corrupted/mistranslated, some people will get the impression we are trashing it, or we are trying to replace it with the Book of Mormon. Neither is the case.

Really? Maybe you're ignoing your own "plain and simple truth". You condemn the other Christian churches as corrupt because historically they have had their share of corrupt leaders. Yet as it has been pointed out in this thread the LDS has dabbled in bigotry and racism. Then there is the practice of polygamy. Originally it was embraced by the LDS, now it is condemned.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

You condemn the other Christian churches as corrupt because historically they have had their share of corrupt leaders.

More for their loss and alteration of doctrine. They do and preach many good things, but do not have the fullness of the gospel.

Yet as it has been pointed out in this thread the LDS has dabbled in bigotry and racism. Then there is the practice of polygamy. Originally it was embraced by the LDS, now it is condemned.

Ah yes, the racist LDS. Persecuted in Missouri because it was feared a LDS majority would rid the state of slavery. The LDS church has neither practiced nor preached anything that was not first done so by the Lord to the Israelites.

And polygamy is not condemned. It is no longer practiced, and thus those who continue to do so are condemned, but the concept/principle of it is not something rejected by the church.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Verto


More for their loss and alteration of doctrine. They do and preach many good things, but do not have the fullness of the gospel.

So the Mormon view of (other) Christians is sort of like Islam's. That's comforting.

Ah yes, the racist LDS. Persecuted in Missouri because it was feared a LDS majority would rid the state of slavery. The LDS church has neither practiced nor preached anything that was not first done so by the Lord to the Israelites.

I think that polygamy was the major issue. Didn't the LDS try to form their own counties with their own sheriffs, thus allowing them to claim the right to write their own local laws permitting polygamy?

And polygamy is not condemned. It is no longer practiced, and thus those who continue to do so are condemned, but the concept/principle of it is not something rejected by the church.

Uhhh..... If you condemn the practitioners aren't you condemning the practice?

[Verto]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
So the Mormon view of (other) Christians is sort of like Islam's. That's comforting.

How is this any different from say, the Catholic church?

I think that polygamy was the major issue. Didn't the LDS try to form their own counties with their own sheriffs, thus allowing them to claim the right to write their own local laws permitting polygamy?

In Missouri? Polygamy, while never widespread, was not commonly practiced until the Latter-day Saints entered Utah. I do not believe polygamy was ever an issue in Ohio, Missouri or Illinois. It was made clear that much of the actions taken against the LDS was because Missouri was a slave state, and the populace feared that the LDS members moving from the North would sway the vote.

Uhhh..... If you condemn the practitioners aren't you condemning the practice?

Polygamy is practiced only when the Lord "authorizes" it. Thus, as revelation was received ending the practice of polygamy for now, those who do so are in violation of the Lord's commandment.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Verto


How is this any different from say, the Catholic church?

I don't recall any of the Catholics here accusing me of apostacy or corruption. They're more likely to over-generalize and accuse Protestants of bigotry and narrow-mindedness. That's different.

In Missouri? Polygamy, while never widespread, was not commonly practiced until the Latter-day Saints entered Utah. I do not believe polygamy was ever an issue in Ohio, Missouri or Illinois. It was made clear that much of the actions taken against the LDS was because Missouri was a slave state, and the populace feared that the LDS members moving from the North would sway the vote.

I recall that the Mormons established a settlement, I've forgotten the name, and unilaterally announced that their community was not within the jurisdiction of the local county. Upon hearing rumors of polygamy some of the law officers attempted to enter the township and were resisted with force.

Polygamy is practiced only when the Lord "authorizes" it. Thus, as revelation was received ending the practice of polygamy for now, those who do so are in violation of the Lord's commandment.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I don't recall any of the Catholics here accusing me of apostacy or corruption. They're more likely to over-generalize and accuse Protestants of bigotry and narrow-mindedness.

Is the Catholic church' view not that it is the true church directly descended from Paul?

I recall that the Mormons established a settlement, I've forgotten the name, and unilaterally announced that their community was not within the jurisdiction of the local county. Upon hearing rumors of polygamy some of the law officers attempted to enter the township and were resisted with force.

I've not heard, or don't remember, this.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Verto


Is the Catholic church' view not that it is the true church directly descended from Paul?

Yes, but so what? Such a claim is a far cry from calling every other church an apostacy (what was first said on this thread) or "missing plain and simple truths" (which was said later when folks started getting riled up about being called apostates).

The other thing about what happened in Missouri was on the History Channel so you know it must be true.

[Aeson]

Yes, but so what? Such a claim is a far cry from calling every other church an apostacy

To be fair, Mormons at least accept other Christian faiths as Christian (even if apostate). Rarely is the reverse true. Most faiths imply or state that other faiths aren't correct, and that's all the "apostasy" claim by the LDS is.

(Modern) LDS doctrine in general is very tolerant. The afterlife will be better than this life for all but a very small number. One of the LDS Prophets said you could count on one hand the number that would be cast into outer darkness. Everyone else gets a better afterlife than this life. Everyone gets a chance to become a God eventually if they are willing to do what it takes, and if not you have lower levels of exaltation (still pretty good) for those who want something else. Everyone gets resurrected and will have eternal life (perhaps baring those few 'in' outer darkness), not just the faithful. Even if you miss your chance here in this life, you still have a chance in the afterlife.