NHL Playoffs, Round 2!

[Agathon]

It's worthless. If someone like Roman Turek wins two games in a row and Belfour loses two in a row on the same days, does that mean that Turek is a better goalie than Belfour in any sense that would matter to someone wanting to sign a new goalie?

No.

Kiprusoff is an average goalie on a good streak. He's not even as good as Giguere was last year (and we know what happened to him). To compare Kiprusoff in any way with a future Hall of Famer who's probably by general consent the second best goalie in the league (behind Brodeur) is just silly.

In fact it's worse than silly, it's utterly risible.

Follow the money. If you put both on the market as free agents tomorrow, guess who would attract the higher price.

[Asher]

He's not even as good as Giguere was last year

Then how come it was Kipper who set the NHL league record this year, if Giguere was better? If Brodeur was better, how come he didn't set the league record?

Let's face it -- Belfour is good, but he's old. He's not as good as Kipper. It doesn't matter -- at all -- if you think he's an "average goalie on a good streak", because his "good streak" has lasted all f*cking season long, and has set NHL records. What matters is -- as of this moment -- Kipper's seasonal and post-seasonal stats are better than Belfour, and Kipper had a LOT less talent as defense than Belfour did to help me out, and played against better teams.

Given a choice between Kiprusoff and Belfour, any intelligent hockey fan would choose Kiprusoff for the team. Hell, if Kipper played that last game, he wouldn't have let more than 1 in, and Toronto would still be here.

[Agathon]

Meaningless drivel as usual.

No intelligent hockey fan would choose an unproven goaltender. One good season isn't really enough to prove long term consistency. Similar claims were made about Nabokov not that long ago - he's good, but he's no Brodeur or Belfour.

If in your deluded mind you want to believe otherwise, that's your problem.

[Asher]

You seem to be missing the critical point -- Kiprusoff has proven to be better than Belfour in the regular and post-season, so the meaningless drivel here is about you being conservative and only going with what has proven to work.

And as Toronto and Detroit have so eloquently shown, what has proven to work doesn't actually work...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

My opinion that Kipper is a better goalie than Belfour today, and I was right -- as the end-game stats show.

Evidence is on my side, my friend.

As any goalie will tell you, one bad night can really screw up the stats. Look at the 7-2 game. Belfour had no help. The Toronto defence fell apart with McCabe being the MVP for the Flyers.

Take out that one game and Eddie has better stats then Kippy.

Eddie had three games where he let in more than four goals. Kippy had five of those games.

Eddie shut down the highest scoring team in the league.

In the end, Toronto didn't have what it takes to win, but that ain't Eddie's fault.

[Asher]

So what, Kipper has had bad nights which screw up his stats, too -- but that didn't stop you from flashing them around before. now that they don't say what you want, you add a big disclaimer. boo-hoo.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher
You seem to be missing the critical point

I'm not missing any point that is really critical. You're just full of crap on this issue. Not that I expected anything more.

[Asher]

Which part is full of crap? Is it true or is it not that Kipper's stats are better, despite playing harder teams?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
You seem to be missing the critical point -- Kiprusoff has proven to be better than Belfour in the regular and post-season,

Regular season
Eddie 34 wins Kippy 24 wins
Eddie 10 shut outs, Kippy 4 SOs

Kippy wins on GAA and Sv%, but Eddie faced 50% more shots then Kippy.

What's really amazing about Eddie is that at the ripe old age of 39, he's still performing, he's still one of the great goaltenders.

Maybe Kippy will be a great goaltender, or maybe he's a flash in the pan.

Personally, I like Kippy's style. I hate the Giguere types who simply rely on gigantic pads and the butterfly to stop shots. Guys like Kippy, Eddie, and of course Broduer are lot more fun to watch.

[notyoueither]

42 to go, guys.

You should drop the gloves. Game's over. No instigator penalties anymore.

[Tingkai]

Asher, you're just a fan boy. When you put on the gear and play goal, come and talk to me. Cause until you been a goalie, you don't know what you're talking abut

**And the gloves are off***

[Asher]

When I used wins as a shutout metric, I was laughed at, and here you are?

You quoted GAA and SV% in the post-season, so be consistent.

Kipper faced more shots than Eddie in the post-season, against BETTER shooters too.

You can only twist the stats to say so much, you know.

Let's face it: GAA and SV% are the best metric of a goalie's ability in the net.

Regular season:
Kipper's GAA: 1.69
Eddie's GAA: 2.13

Post season:
Kipper's GAA: 1.92
Eddie's GAA: 2.09

While Kipper was playing against higher-seeded teams (including the #1 team in the league), and Toronto was not.

Sorry, Kipper is statistically the better goalie this year.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Regular season
Eddie 34 wins Kippy 24 wins
Eddie 10 shut outs, Kippy 4 SOs

Kippy wins on GAA and Sv%, but Eddie faced 50% more shots then Kippy.

What's really amazing about Eddie is that at the ripe old age of 39, he's still performing, he's still one of the great goaltenders.

Maybe Kippy will be a great goaltender, or maybe he's a flash in the pan.

Personally, I like Kippy's style. I hate the Giguere types who simply rely on gigantic pads and the butterfly to stop shots. Guys like Kippy, Eddie, and of course Broduer are lot more fun to watch.

Fuhr was the king of fun to watch, but that was mainly a product of him being a circus acrobat and having half his defense more focused on goals for than against. I have seen him stop a shot while literally standing on his head. Actually it was the back of his neck with his entire body above him while he still got the puck with his glove.

Belfour has had a good career, and is very solid. But Roy and Fuhr, among others, have been on a level beyond that. Kipper shows signs of being there, but it will have to last more than one season.

[Agathon]

You know in your heart of hearts which bit. Jesus, in any year over the past decade there have been a few goalies who have had better stats than Belfour. That makes no difference to people who know what they are talking about. Belfour is simply the better goalie because he has what they don't, the ability to perform at a consistently high level. This is what distinguishes the league's elite players from the also rans.

Kiprusoff may have that ability, but we have no way of telling.

If one year's stats were all that mattered the Leafs would trade Sundin for Marian Hossa. Or better, Calgary would trade Iginla for Jagr (who got one more point this season IIRC). Was Hossa a better player than Sundin this year? No. Was Jagr a better player than Iginla this year? No.



PS. Harder teams? Your team is in the weaker conference this year in case you hadn't noticed.

[Agathon]

Wasn't Fuhr useless when he stopped snorting coke?