19 Protestors Killed by Coalition Soldiers in Najaf

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


Where is Lord of the Mark?

There must be some explanation for why America's friends, the Shiites, are doing this.

I of course, NEVER said that all Iraqi Shiites were Americas friends. Do i really need to go back and quote my own post.


The explanation of course is that Moqtad al Sadr, who has been hostile to the Coalition since the occupation started, is going for broke. The Coalition arrested on of his aides for the murder of Grand Ayatollah Al Khoei. Khoei was killed at the beginning of the occupation.. Evidently he WAS seen as a friend of the coalition, and so was eliminated by violence. Apparently, with the transition to Iraqi sovereignty coming, the coalition decided to go after Al Sadr. Presumably with a close aide arrested, Al Sadr deduced he would be next on the list, and decided to strike while he was strong.

One hopes the Coalition was wise enough to realize that Al Sadr would strike when Yacoubi was arrested, and is prepared. If not, such unpreparedness would be criminally negligent.

What is not clear is whether Al Sadr is ready for a fight to the death, or intends to negotiate. Gr, Ayatollah Sistani has called for "calm and negotiations". Bremer certainly doesnt want to let Al Sadr get away again, but there may be pressure from SCIRI, Dawa, and Sistani not to arrest Al Sadr. Expect some complex politics ahead.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The report I saw on the BBC said the Spanish arrested the fellow. Maybe the BBC was in error.

Ive seen reports saying it was unclear WHO arrested him, with the possibility open that Iraqi forces did so.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Wezil
I haven't seen the content of the newspaper which was closed down, but one can't print just anything....even in a 'free and democratic' society.

Was the content truly subversive? Anyone know?

they called a suicide bombing a deliberate US missile attack. The paper has called for the killing of Americans. Sadr announced that he was part of Hamas(he said something to the effect that "I am the swinging arm of Hamas in Iraq") I think.

I am very suprised that we aren't landing on this guy and his friends even harder.

[lord of the mark]

an Iraqi judge has just issued an arrest warrant for Muqtada Al Sadr.

[DinoDoc]

I hope they have his arse dead to rights otherwise there will be trouble.

[Dinner]

Sadr certainly belongs in jail with the rest of the common criminals.

[DanS]

They're taking him in for the murder of Ayatollah Khoei. Very interesting move, indeed. Looks to me like our boys more or less chose to marginalize Sadr at this time.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Ive seen reports saying it was unclear WHO arrested him, with the possibility open that Iraqi forces did so.

But surely the Iraqis would not make a move like that, without having the acceptance of Bremer. So why was the Spanish contingent not informed of the aides arrest?

The reason I am interested in this, is that usually one of the greatest hindrences to effective military operations is a confused chain of command, with resultant failures in communication.

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Eli


de·bate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v. intr.
To consider something; deliberate.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument.

Is this concept familiar to you?

Oh yes. but sometimes it can be grotesque to debate some topics with some people.

However, i will try, in general, ilustrate a bit about this topic.

A resume in inverse chronological order:

Ceuta: Today Spanish - before Portugesse - before independent state city (Taifa kingdom) - before part of the Al-andalus caliphate (muslim Spain and Portugal) - before dependent from Umeyyas in Damascus (like muslim iberian territories were) - before part of visigotic Hispania- before Roman - before Carthaginian - before phoenician - before we dont know.

Melilla: Today Spanish - before part of Granada Kingdom - before part of Al-andalus caliphate - before dependent from Damascus - before visigotic - before Roman - before carthaginian - begore greek - before phoenician - before we dont know.

Neither Ceuta nor Melilla had never nothing to do with the Fez Sultanate (if you want to take it how a possible seed for the present-day Moroccan state) This is the reason because when Morocco became independent from Spain and France in 1957 Ceuta and Melilla were no returned. There were nothing to be "returned". The only reason for any possible demand today would be "geographical". Even that is a very poor reason. Ceuta is only at 14 km from peninsular Spain. There is no more relation between Morocco and Ceuta/Melilla than, for instance, with Sevilla, Madrid or Santiago de Compostela.

About the people living AROUND Ceuta and Melilla, in moroccan territory, well, it is the Rif region. I have been there many times (i have some friends there). They dont like to be part of Morocco. In fact they are the poorest region of Morocco, they are very bad trated by the Moroccan state, like second level citizens. They would like to be independent. Historically they never had relation with the Fez Sultanate, being independient. They are so poor that the only possibility of survival for them is the cultivation of hashish or to emigrate to Spain, many dying in the travel on the Gibralatar Straight (of course moroccan autorithies do nothing to avoid it, because they are part of the ilegal inmigration maffia and because It seems they want to bomb spanish coasts with cadavers)

In fact, recently moroccan monarchy invented some nonsense demands about Ceuta and Melilla to distract his people from his own desperate situation. However they have no been very successful, most moroccans dont give a damn about Ceuta and Melilla. They are too bussy trying to survive. But if somebody want to follow the game of an antidemocratic, corrupt and absolutist petty monarch who considere himself a semi-god and that treates "his people" like if they were s***, is his problem no mine.

A point about your "Apartheid" , Azazel The mayor of Melilla since 1999 to 2002 was Mustafa Aberchán, a muslim of moroccan origin.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel

Azazel, are you implying Spain is the same as Israel?

I am not saying that Spain is the same as Israel.

Spain hasn't been occupying Iraq for fifty years now and doing things like this on a regular basis, has it? I do think, however, that the Spanish troops there should be court-martialed.

[Ramo]

As usual, this was idiotic. Most of the folks who have been protesting are Sistani's boys, not Sadr's (or recent converts to Sadr). As such, they probably haven't been involved in the assassinations by the Sadrists and whatnot. As I said in the Iraq thread a couple days ago, Sadr has been enjoying enormous support relative to just a couple weeks ago (compare the sizes of the rallies and the places they're being held, and this is apparant). Crushing his dissent in this manner - closing down papers, firing on protestors is drastically increasing the support he has, particularly given that he has a broad network with imams all around Southern Iraq, and this isn't going to stop his message from getting out. It's only giving the message more validity.

In addition to being morally reprehensible.

Of course, going after Sadr should've happened a year ago, before we allowed his militia to fester and grow and conduct wanton assassinations (and before we tried to co-opt it). In fact warrants against Sadr had been issued several months ago! Why we're doing it now, a relatively quiet period in terms of the Sadrists' violence, when the Shia are feeling disaffected, a period a increased Sunni insurgency, when coalition troop are leaving left and right, three months before the handover, I don't understand. Sheer incompetence on the part of this gov't.

[lord of the mark]

from Zayed, at HealingIraq.blogspot

Muqty is playing on his old dirty tricks again, only this time he has gone too far. Following last Friday's prayer sermon, when he announced that he would be a 'striking hand' in Iraq for Hizbollah and Hamas whenever they need, and issued a veiled warning to Kurds to stop assisting the occupiers, his followers in Kufa ran amok killing an Iraqi IP colonel and after that attacked Salvadorian and Spanish troops. Spanish forces retorted by arresting Sayyid Mustafa Al-Ya'qubi, an aide of Muqtada and head of Sadr's office in Najaf.
Meanwhile, in a display of power and defiance, Al-Sadr organised a military parade on the streets of Al-Thawra district (Sadr city), a Shi'ite stronghold, in Baghdad on Saturday where thousands of Jaish Al-Mahdi (Al-Mahdi army) militiamen in black marched along with mullahs to the horror of Iraqis who watched on tv, bringing back nightmares of Fedayeen parades under Saddam. American and Israeli flags were burnt at the parade, and large posters of Muqtada and his father Mohammed Sadiq Al-Sadr (assasinated by Mukhabarat in 1999) were carried by the demonstrators. One of the mullahs at the parade stated that "this is to show our power to the world. This army is a striking force and a time bomb that can go off any moment at the time and place our leader deems necessary". Later that day, Sadr followers cut off roads leading to the entrance of the Convention center near the Green Zone, set fire in tires, and prevented vehicles from crossing over Jumhuriya bridge. While they were at it, they attacked Video CD stores and gaming shops in Bab Al-Sharji accusing them of selling porn movies.

[Tripledoc]

So there are two sides to the story. One where the arrest of aide Mustafa al-Yacoubi caused the riots, and one where his arrest was caused by the riots.

[Tripledoc]

The conservative site antiwar.com writes.

The protests on Saturday and Sunday were sparked by the Coalition arrest on Saturday of Sadrist cleric Mustafa Yaqubi, the head of the Najaf office of Muqtada al-Sadr. Initially the Spanish denied the arrest, which provoked large demonstrations in Baghdad on Saturday led by Muhammad al-Tabatabai, a key aide of Muqtada al-Sadr there. But AP now says that the Coalition Provisional Authority admits that it has indeed arrested Yaqubi. Sadrist spokesmen in Baghdad complained that no reason was given for the arrest, and promised to reply "with every means necessary," according to ash-Sharq al-Awsat..

It seems to me possible that the Americans swooped into Najaf and arrested Mustafa Yaqubi, and that the Spanish did not even know about it to begin with. That would explain their initial denial. If so, in a sense, the US set the Spanish up for a confrontation with the Sadrists. Why would the US arrest Yaqubi? AP now says that he was taken into custody in connection with the murder on April 10, 2003, of Abdul Majid al-Khoei in Najaf, and that they intended to charge some 28 persons. It is frankly odd that the CPA is pursuing this case at this time, and one suspects that it is an attempt to weaken Muqtada's organization before they return sovereignty to the Iraqis and move to elections (Muqtada's forces could well be a pivotal group in parliament).

http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=2246

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
So there are two sides to the story. One where the arrest of aide Mustafa al-Yacoubi caused the riots, and one where his arrest was caused by the riots.

looks like a cycle of escalation. Sadr has been escalating, and the Coalition responded, and Sadr in turn escalated further. I would expect more information about the timing to be forthcoming later. I HOPE the coalition has sources inside Sadr's oranization, and that they are willing to act in advance of any attempt by Sadr at a coup.