Riots in Kosovo. Albanians attack Greek peacekeepers

[Ned]

Question, have the Muslims in East Timor been massacred by the Catholic Majority after independence? What happened to them?

[BeBMan]

"There is not justification for the UN to deny people their sovereignty."

Sure there is, the UN is there to built up democratic structures, not to promote new cases of ethnic cleansing.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ned
Question, have the Muslims in East Timor been massacred by the Catholic Majority after independence? What happened to them?

I don't know, but why do you think this would have any meaning for the situation in the Kosovo?

[East Street Trader]

Ned, there has never been any such right. Sovereignty is characteristic of a state, not an individual or a group. Indeed its sovereignty is the thing about which every state is most jelously concerned.

Consider the history of your own country and what happened when a minority group wished to secede.

And you can't create sovereign states by just giving progressively smaller groups a vote.

[Pekka]

Let the beatings begin.


Real doctor doesn't refuse helping someone that needs help, old grudges or not. Doctors take oath to help, they should not be doctors anymore after this.

I should just get a jeep, drive down there with my rifle, aviator glasses and beat the living crap out of some people and crack some skulls. There are clearly some folks needing it. Either they learn it soon, or we beat some sense to them, because there will be violence. I just think it better be controlled and by us.

[Spiffor]

Pekka:
Don't worry, you don't need to go there for violence to occur, you know. There are plenty of locals who will want to teach some "common sense" with your methods to other locals.

[Pekka]

Yes but my violence is aimed for peace, not hatred. I beat them to teach them to love each other you know?
Like tough love. Besides, I'm the good guy here, I make them hate me so they can hate me together and have something in common and .. you know become friends again. I'm taking the hits in that action, someones gotta be the bad guy and you know frankly I think this would make a saint.

[Pekka]

But in all seriousness, I don't know how to solve the problem. They just have too bad history with each other and not just the latest rumble. I don't think they will learn to live together. Too much hatred.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
Yes but my violence is aimed for peace, not hatred. I beat them to teach them to love each other you know?
Like tough love. Besides, I'm the good guy here, I make them hate me so they can hate me together and have something in common and .. you know become friends again. I'm taking the hits in that action, someones gotta be the bad guy and you know frankly I think this would make a saint.

ROFL

[Pekka]

That's the way the MP leader in the army did it. MPs got in a fight with each other (yeah a great thing to have the MPs fighting each other, they should be like.. you know be the police and all?!) and the MP officer came up and was really pissed and challenged 1 on 1 fight and promised to kill people. So they started disliking the MP leader I mean he was being a real mean ******* I saw it myself. And he took me to interrogation too, because he thought I was in the fight too which I wasn't, I was just looking from a distance. He was being a mean SOB, I mean threatning me.. I wasn't scared though, I'm sure I could have eye gauged the guy and blinded him, see who the bastard is now, but anyway the point is and he told me 'someone needs to be the *******'. It's true.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's this conflict that makes me wonder about Old Europe's demands for the UN in Iraq.

Indeed... but we needed Kosovo, because that at least helped deflect some accusations of racism in invading Iraq.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
Question, have the Muslims in East Timor been massacred by the Catholic Majority after independence? What happened to them?

No.

"

Section II. Status of Religious Freedom

Legal/Policy Framework

The new Constitution formally replaced the UNTAET regulations and administration of the country on May 20, 2002. The Constitution was ratified in March 2002 and went into effect in the first hour of the date of independence, May 20, 2002. Indonesian legal requirements that each citizen be a member of one of Indonesia’s officially recognized religions no longer apply under the independent Government. Police cadets receive training in equal enforcement of the law and non-discrimination, including religious non-discrimination. The UNTAET regulations provided for freedom of religion and the UNTAET generally respected this right in practice. The administration at all levels generally protected this right, and there were no arrests in cases related to societal religious violence or attacks against churches and mosques (see Section III). The Constitution was ratified in March 2002, and requires the State to recognize and to respect different religious denominations, which are free to organize and carry out their activities, as long as such activities are conducted in accordance with the Constitution and the law. Under the Constitution, the Government also is responsible for promoting cooperation among the different religious denominations. In addition, the Constitution provides for freedom of conscience, religion, and worship for all persons, and stipulates that no one shall be persecuted or discriminated against on the basis of his or her religious convictions.


The Constitution provides for the separation of church and state, however, during the popular consultations for the Constitution, many members of the public expressed their desire for the Constitution to declare Roman Catholicism as the official religion. Earlier, Bishop Belo, the senior Catholic prelate and a Nobel laureate, had requested the Constituent Assembly not establish a national religion.

There have been allegations that Muslims were unfairly denied the right to vote in the presidential election of April 2002. The voter eligibility rules were clear prior to the election just as they were for the Constituent Assembly election of 2001 and the independence referendum of August 1999. The criteria are: individuals had to be born in the country; or b) individuals born abroad needed at least one parent born in the country; or c) an individual had to have a spouse who met either the conditions of (a) or (b). Religion was never a criterion. If any prospective voters were denied eligibility, it was because they could not meet any of the three clearly and publicly stated criteria.

Roman Catholicism is the dominant religion and the list of designated public holidays reflects this, including Good Friday, Assumption Day, All Saint’s Day, Day of the Immaculate Conception, and Christmas Day.

Restrictions on Religious Freedom

The UNTAET’s policy and practice have contributed to the generally unrestricted practice of religion; however, there have been incidents of violence between religious groups. There were no arrests in cases related to societal religious violence or attacks against churches and mosques (see Section III). The UNTAET’s ability to respond to such attacks was hindered by insufficient prison space and judicial and police resources. In addition the UNTAET’s tendency to encourage local reconciliation rather than punishing offenders was an additional factor behind its decision not to charge perpetrators of religious attacks.

The strong and pervasive influence of the Catholic Church can have an effect on government officials. Representatives of Protestant churches and the Islamic community also have some political influence. In the district of Maliana, a Protestant ministry pastor reported that he applied to the district government in the last year of the UNTAET Administration to rent abandoned property for the purpose of engaging in humanitarian, educational, and religious work. The official in charge, a Catholic, warned that the Catholic Church in the area would oppose such a rental to a Protestant organization, and that it might cause trouble with rank-and-file Catholics. The pastor subsequently withdrew the request to set up a facility in Maliana, choosing instead to file another request after the new Government was installed. At the end of the period covered by this report, the pastor still had not filed another request to set up a facility in Maliana. The pastor has reported good relations with local Catholic priests and the public and has felt more comfortable moving about the district.

There were no reports of religious prisoners or detainees.

Forced Religious Conversion

There were no reports of forced religious conversion, including of minor U.S. citizens who had been abducted or illegally removed from the United States, or of the refusal to allow such citizens to be returned to the United States. "

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13865.htm

However, Indonesia is fighting with its own Acehnese Muslims, who happen to live in an Indonesian province blessed with fossil fuel supplies, amongst other things.

http://www.refugees.org/news/crisis/indonesia/aceh.htm

And of course, Indonesia is still occupying West Papua.

Plus ca change...

[Sandman]

Europe is always going to have ulcers of backward nutjobs scarring the political landscape. We should settle in for the long haul over this, like Northern Ireland. Maybe in fifty years this'll be close to ending.

[Ned]

Originally posted by BeBro


I don't know, but why do you think this would have any meaning for the situation in the Kosovo?

Because it would show that you can turn a government over to the local population despite hard feelings and not have ethnic cleansing.

[Ned]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
Ned, there has never been any such right. Sovereignty is characteristic of a state, not an individual or a group. Indeed its sovereignty is the thing about which every state is most jelously concerned.

Consider the history of your own country and what happened when a minority group wished to secede.

And you can't create sovereign states by just giving progressively smaller groups a vote.

I'm at a loss. WTF was the interverntion about if it was not to give the people of Kosovo the right to determine their own future?