Riots in Kosovo. Albanians attack Greek peacekeepers

[Ned]

Originally posted by BeBro


That is irrational. Currently NATO and UN try to control things. Without them violence between the groups would be much more extreme, with much worse consequences especially for the Serb minority.

BeBro, I can point to history and what recently happened as support for my argument. When the Italians took control of Albania and Kosovo, the Albanians went on a rampage against the Serbs. The Italians tried to "control" them as sell. It didn't work.

When the Germans took over, the anti-Serb violence by the Albanians only increased as the Germans form the Albanians into a division of the SS.

Since Clinton and his NATO followers took over Kosovo, the Albanians have again been unleashed on the Serbs. The recent wave of violence shows just how effective the NATO forces are in protecting the Serbs.

I say, pull out and turn the government over to Albania, but hold the new government personally responsible for harm done to the Serbs, just like Milosevic is now on trial for harming the Albanians.

[Ned]

Vet, that site is too pro-Serb for your tastes?

[player1]

Originally posted by VetLegion
And some things about Kosovo you may not understand. Albanians were a majority there for decades and yet somwhere about 100% of policemen in the region were Serbian. How do you people explain that?

Only after Milosevic got to power (around 1989).
And then, it was because there were similar ethical problem as today (Serbs complained that Albanians boosed them around).
So he used situation to his advantage to turn things by 180.
(which looks that wan't such good idea at all)

[SIZE=1]Or the fact that Kosovo had an autonomy in Yugoslavia, under Tito, however Milosevic revoked that autonomy in 1989 (or so).

Famous veto right. It was enough to one of two regions (Vovjodina or Kosovo) doesn't like some decision and it would be blocked. Nobody from central Serbia liked that.
Especialy since nothing similar existed in other republics like Croatia or Bosna (and they had large regions settled with minorties like Serbs).

Still it looks that it wasn't such good decision.

Originally posted by VetLegion I am only mentioning this because people seem to have distorted perception about who bossed who around in Kosovo for last 50 years.

And still Albainans migrated from Albania to Kosovo for all those years. Not to mention how much money Serbia invested in development of Kosovo (was most undeveloped region in ex-YU).

[SIZE=1]Serbs bossed everyone else and basta.

Typical western sterotype.

[SIZE=1]Oh yeah, paiktis you forgot to mention Serbs burnt the mosques in Belgrade and Nis.

Thins is very bad thing indeed.
Almost eveone in Serbia condems these acts of huligans.

Not to say that it helped other side to use typical stereotypes aginst Serbs one again.

Really bad thing indeed.


But can't compare to things done in Kosovo these days.

[VetLegion]

Ned, take into account that I am biased, I am a Croatian from Zagreb, Croatia. I try to keep a cool head though.

Pozdrav player1, drago mi je da se citamo na ovom odlicnom forumu

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Ned
Vet, that site is too pro-Serb for your tastes?

Not just pro-Serb. You can be pro-Serb without me calling you worthless. The problem with the mentioned site is that it works on this principle:

1. Take something bad said about Serbs or Milosevic.
2. Completely deny it.
3. Propagate mindless propaganda blaming someone else for the given thing.

I don't know is it still up, I haven't visited that site in ages, but should you peruse the site for longer you should be able to find a theory about how US government organized September 11. Something for your own enjoyement, and should put the site in perspective

[Dinner]

Originally posted by player1
Only after Milosevic got to power (around 1989).


And still Albainans migrated from Albania to Kosovo for all those years. Not to mention how much money Serbia invested in development of Kosovo (was most undeveloped region in ex-YU).

That's incorrect. The Albanians have been the majority since atleast 1945. A higher birth rate combined with an outflow of Serbs who were going from backwards Kosovo into more developed parts of Yugoslavia accounted for most of the increase though there was a slight amount of immigration from Albania. After 1948 Tito sealed the border and immigration from Albania went almost to zero.

[Dinner]

Most of the immigration which did happen occured during the period of the Italian occupation of Albanian and Kosovo. At first Albanians fled the Italian forces and then additional Albanians were moved into Kosovo in order to reinforce Musselini's claim that Kosovo really belonged to Italian controlled Albania instead of Serbia. After the war Tito expelled large numbers of these "new" Albanians though some stayed.

[VetLegion]

Player1, if info in your profile is correct, we're about the same age. Milosevic rose to power when I was too young to follow politics, but it is my understanding that he did so on a wave of Serb nationalism.

Rallies with 1 million people attending and speeches he held in Kosovo, about how "nobody is going to beat Serbs" ... stuff like that.

Don't kid me about veto rights. Milosevic didn't revoke authonomy because of some veto rights. He did it because he was a nationalist and expansionist. He was also much worse.

About Albanians migrating and Kosovo. If you read the thread you could have seen me and paiktis discussing it. Indeed Kosovo was the most undeveloped region in former Yugoslavia.

However I would like to see how much of the funds that went into developing it came from Serbia and how much from Slovenia and Croatia. I am of opinion that everyone payed a share.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The long term solution is to redraw the boundries so that ethnic groups all more or less reside in the "right" countries. Of course the UN will do its damnedest to prevent that out of fear it will spark wars. One thing is clear though and that is the current artifical status of Kosovo and Bosnia won't last without outside armies forcing them to work together.

Yes, I also think so. It is best if everyone lives in their own pathetic little state with about as much sovereignity as they can have in this age of globalization (read - none).

The moment international forces pull out of Kosovo or Bosnia is the moment violence begins again. If there is a division this would be solved.

But the problem is, and this is indeed a huge problem, that division of territory would in many cases legitimize the results of wars and ethnice cleansing.

The world can't allow this, so for now they are artificially keeping it all together.

[Dinner]

As I understand it Melosevic revoked the special status of Kosovo and Voyvodina 1) because it was popular with Serb nationalists and 2) because it gave Serbia an absolute majority in the Yugoslav Parlement. Remember Melosevic was the President of Serbia and not of Yugoslavia.

Naturally the other members of the Feberation objected to Serbia having the ability to ram through what ever bills it wanted and Slovenia and Croatia threatened to Suceed if autonomy wasn't restored. A few day later first Slovenia, then Croatia, and finally Bosnia followed through with their threat (Macadonia didn't do it until years later).

[player1]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Ned, take into account that I am biased, I am a Croatian from Zagreb, Croatia. I try to keep a cool head though.

Pozdrav player1, drago mi je da se citamo na ovom odlicnom forumu

Zdravo

Well, it's understandable that we don't agree on some points.
We are after all, from countries which were in war after all, and have different views on same situation.

Oerdin:
That's incorrect. The Albanians have been the majority since atleast 1945. A higher birth rate combined with an outflow of Serbs who were going from backwards Kosovo into more developed parts of Yugoslavia accounted for most of the increase though there was a slight amount of immigration from Albania. After 1948 Tito sealed the border and immigration from Albania went almost to zero.

Hmm...
As far as I know, there were immigrants later from communist Albaina to Kosovo.


Also, I remember that many Serbian pre WWII colonist, were not allowed to return to Kosovo.
I don't kow, but maybe that was a way for Tito to satisfy Albanian population there.

Originally posted by VetLegion
Rallies with 1 million people attending and speeches he held in Kosovo, about how "nobody is going to beat Serbs" ... stuff like that.

Nationalism, as a mean to the end, would never work if there were not some injusices to feed on.
Serbs did have some problems there at late 80's, and Milosevic used that to gain power and support.

"nobody is going to beat Serbs" was a response on a way how albainas treted Serbs

[QUOTE] Originally posted by VetLegion However I would like to see how much of the funds that went into developing it came from Serbia and how much from Slovenia and Croatia. I am of opinion that everyone payed a share. [QUOTE]

But, since Kosovo was (or is?) Serbian region is payed the most.

[QUOTE] [SIZE=1]Don't kid me about veto rights. Milosevic didn't revoke authonomy because of some veto rights. He did it because he was a nationalist and expansionist. He was also much worse.[QUOTE]

Reminds me of some other leaders in the region.

[VetLegion]

I wouldn't go too deep into how Kosovo was in the late 80's since I don't know much about it and I admit so.

Player1 what do you think should be done with Kosovo?

[Ned]

I would be in favor of redrawing borders to the extent that is possible. We cannot stay there forever. We cannot turn the Albanian back over to the Serbs. And we should try to keep the Serbs together to the extent we can.

Staying will not solve the problems, only defer them, at great international expense and for no purpose.

[Dr Strangelove]

Perhaps some of these areas might accept the joint protection of Austria and Hunagary.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ned
Since Clinton and his NATO followers took over Kosovo, the Albanians have again been unleashed on the Serbs. The recent wave of violence shows just how effective the NATO forces are in protecting the Serbs.

Indeed, it is the first time violence on that scale happened there since the NATO took over, while before was open civil war. Are you trying to tell me people were safer at that time?

I say, pull out and turn the government over to Albania, but hold the new government personally responsible for harm done to the Serbs, just like Milosevic is now on trial for harming the Albanians.

Why not test this strategy in Iraq first?