The Haitian Solution

[Agathon]

A right wing military junta?

And who says Fez is not a fascist?

[Pax]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
My point is that you are currently witnessing what the type of government you are proposing (strongman rule) leaves in its wake on the Haitian half of thier island. You really haven't done anything to answer that other than to suggest that an enlightened despot could turn the tide of Haitian history.

Fine. An enlightened despot could turn the tide. What is a dictator but a king by another name anyway.
It's a big difference between having a country that pretends to be a democracy by having rigged elections and etc, and having person say I am King/Emperor whatever, I rule on behalf of the people. I am not corrupt with pretenses of a democracy I cannot deliver at this time.

[Pax]

All the kings, Queens, Emperors, Tsars and Ceasars have been de facto dictators until modern times. So having a Dictator is not necessarily bad if he is a Solomon or Charlemagne.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Giancarlo,
I'm not ignoring your points. I'm not saying that Capitalist Countries or Capitalists are evil. I am stating the truth.

Actually you are stating falsehood upon falsehood and it is up to me to stop these falsehoods from being spread anymore.

The job of a Capitalist is to make money not create a middle class or spread the wealth.

Actually that's wrong. It is to create a middle class and that is exactly what it did in the past hundred years.

Whatever I sale, I intend to charge as much money as the market will allow.

Market fluctations.

If I were to open a factory anywhere in the world, I would try to get the cheapest labor that I could.

At least those people you do give the jobs to get jobs, instead of nothing. And the government of that respected country would collect taxes from you.

It's because our strong central government instituted all kinds of labor and business laws designed to hopefully give Americans a fighting chance against big business.

You are full of bull****. America is one of the freest economies in the world. A strong central government? Wake up little man, this isn't the Soviet Union or Cuba. The labor and business laws exist (hence the prosecution against Martha Stewart and others) but that is for people who break the law. The country has a pretty lax business code like that of Singapore in most other cases.

These labor and business laws that provide protection to American citizen are socialist by nature.

No, actually they aren't.

WIthout this regulation by government the average citizen would be screwed. Have you ever heard of company towns.

Actually look at Singapore. That is reputed to be the freest economy in the world, and its citizens better than most European countries. The average citizen is helped by capitalism and the US is not in any form socialist. Don't you dare degrade the US by calling it that.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Here's Cuba:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

I'm can't be bothered to transcribe it all, but suffice it to say that Cuba has less than half the per capita GDP of the Dominican Republic, but has significantly higher literacy and life expectancy.

Remember that they don't have to pay for all of their services, so that a direct comparison isn't really applicible. They also have slavery in the DR.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Remember that they don't have to pay for all of their services, so that a direct comparison isn't really applicible. They also have slavery in the DR.

Slavery is prevalent in Cuba too.

"PINAR DEL RIO, August – The Cuban government’s drive to earn hard currency extends to the prison system, where prisoners are put to work in various enterprises to contribute to the effort, often with little regard for their safety or well-being.

Prisoners are obligated to work in order to have access to rights which are stipulated in the Cuban Penal Code as accruing to all prisoners, such as for example, conditional freedom after serving half to two-thirds of a sentence.

At prison Kilo [for Kilometer] Five-and-a-half, outside the city of Pinar del Río, prisoners work in an aluminum refining plant within the prison. The Ministry of the Interior derives revenue from exporting the aluminum produced in this facility by the prisoners.

The aluminum refining plant in the prison is a primitive operation without modern equipment or protection for the workers. The oven where the metal is melted uses fuel oil and spews black, acrid smoke; it frequently collapses due to the poor condition of the refractary brick that make up its walls.

The molten metal is poured on the molds from buckets hand-carried by teams of two prisoners. [The melting point of aluminum is 1220 degrees F (660 degrees C).] Any spills or spatters usually end up burning somebody. Should that happen, the injured have to wait for transportation; there are no medical facilities in the prison and its one ambulance broke down more than five years ago and has never been repaired.

The prisoners receive no protective clothing, shoes or gloves or, indeed, no clothing of any kind; they wear their own. Prison authorities say they just don’t have the resources to provide them.

According to the most conservative estimates, each "pour" of the smelter yields revenue to the plant of between 500 and 1,250 dollars. Sometimes the plant manages two "pours" in a day, and averages twenty in a month.

Inmates receive a salary that can be as high as 130 pesos (about 6 dollars) a month. From that, prison authorities discount 45 percent for food, clothing, and articles of personal hygiene, which the prisoners seldom actually receive. The remainder doesn’t always make it to the families of the inmates; there’s widespread corruption in the administration of the penal system and there have been several high profile cases exposed in recent years.

[Independent journalist Arroyo was recently released after serving a six-month sentence in "Kilo Five-and-a-Half" prison.]"

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/ago00/25e2.htm

How would you feel if you earned a measling six dollars a month for some of the most difficult work?

[Giancarlo]

Something else about the system commies here have been boasting:

"HAVANA, Cuba, Feb. 24 (www.cubanet.org) - The daughter of political prisoner Guido Sigler Amaya says her father's health has deteriorated to the point where he only weighs 90 pounds.

Sigler Amaya, who is believed top be in his seventies, suffers from a duodenal ulcer, prostate problems and sinusitis.

"He doesn't weigh more than 90 pounds," said his daughter, Yusleidi Sigler after a recent visit.

Sigler Amaya, vice president of the dissident Independent Alternative Option Movement, was sentenced last March to 20 years imprisonment."

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/feb04/26e1.htm

Oh I am sure everybody remembers this too:

GENEVA, 17 - The Cuban government's imprisonment of 75 dissidents is an "unprecedented wave of repression" in the country, a United Nations official said.

In a report produced for next month's annual session of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, Christine Chanet noted that the dissidents were tried and criticized their convictions within weeks or days of their arrests last year and the fact that the trials were closed to the public.

The 75 dissidents were sentenced in April to prison terms ranging from six to 28 years on charges of working with U.S. diplomats to undermine Cuba's socialist system. American officials and the activists denied the accusations.

Cuba has refused to allow Chanet, a French judge, to visit the island, claiming the trip would infringe on its sovereignty. The government also did not respond to her request for a pardon for the dissidents.

Chanet, who prepared her report based on meetings with activists, human-rights investigators and other governments, said she has information that the dissidents are kept in very poor conditions, either in total isolation or in overcrowded cells with common criminals. They are often moved from one prison to another, making it difficult for their families to visit them.

Chanet said she also was concerned about the April 11 execution of three Cubans who hijacked a ferry to try to reach the United States.

Cuba imposed a moratorium on use of the death penalty in 2000, but suspended it to carry out the three executions.

Chanet called for a reinstatement of the moratorium and for an end to the imprisonment of people who had harmed neither people nor property.

"There was an unprecedented wave of repression in March and April 2003 in Cuba, on the pretext that American interests were taking an active role among political opponents in Havana," Chanet said.

She noted that Cuba continues to suffer from the "disastrous and persistent" effects of the U.S. economic embargo that has been in place for more than 40 years.

"The extreme tension between Cuba and the United States creates a climate that is unfavorable to the development of freedom of expression and assembly," she said.

"U.S. laws and the financial support given to 'the building of democracy in Cuba' make political opponents on the island look like sympathizers with foreigners."

Nevertheless, she said, it was up to the Cuban government to avoid making its people suffer any more than they already are.

Cuba last week defended its human rights record, insisting most of the criticism comes from people who are trying to overthrow the government.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/feb04/18e4.htm

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
All the kings, Queens, Emperors, Tsars and Ceasars have been de facto dictators until modern times. So having a Dictator is not necessarily bad if he is a Solomon or Charlemagne.

More often than not he is a Nero or Saddam Hussein.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Slavery is prevalent in Cuba too.

"PINAR DEL RIO, August – The Cuban government’s drive to earn hard currency extends to the prison system, where prisoners are put to work in various enterprises to contribute to the effort, often with little regard for their safety or well-being.

If you include prisoners, then the U.S. has slavery also.

[pchang]

Baseball

The real didfference between the DR and Haiti are all theMLB stars from the DR that go and put money back into their economy. Find some Haitians that can throw the heat (a la Pedro Martinez) or hit the HR (a la Sammy Sosa) and they will be well on their way to recovery.

[The Mad Monk]

By the way, PA, have you met Laz? You two really should talk.

"de facto dictators" are something of a hobby for him.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


If you include prisoners, then the U.S. has slavery also.

Then every country in the world does.

I was talking about the conditions they are subjected to. I mean come on... look at the conditions in US prisons. They are resorts compared to the prisons of Cuba where people are put to the most dangerous tasks. Did you even bother reading the rest of the article or did it not fit in your ugly agenda?

In fact a little something to note.. prisoners in US jails have more freedom than regular citizens in Cuba, who have done nothing wrong and are not in jail.

[Az]

well, I don't know about you, but I don't consider "getting raped in the ass" as a fun vacation activity.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Azazel
well, I don't know about you, but I don't consider "getting raped in the ass" as a fun vacation activity.

Well prisoners in the US prison system have access to television (and it doesn't have Fidel Castro on every channel). In fact some people want to commit crimes so they can go back to prison because the conditions are better than anything they are currently getting.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Azazel
well, I don't know about you, but I don't consider "getting raped in the ass" as a fun vacation activity.

Are you saying there is an Anal Rape Gap between the United States and Cuba?