The Haitian Solution

[Giancarlo]

For the last damn time neither China or Vietnam are not communist. At least anymore. In the late 80s there was a revolution of change in China, that caused its economy to open under the Deng Xiaoping regime. Most communist regimes do commit genocide. Take Vietnam's treatment of the Montagnards.. or China's "cultural revolution" which caused the deaths of some 20 million. I think both Batista and Castro are bad and corrupt. Batista was overthrown and the people wanted change but unfortunately for them, it was one corrupt regime being replaced with another. China did not become powerful under any socialist economic system it had. It became powerful because of the opening up of its market, which is associated with capitalism. China's state sectors reeks with corruption and mismanagement (take the rampant coal accidents that kill thousands each year). It was actually capitalism and private companies that came up to prop up China. NOT COMMUNISM.

I am sorry but if you cannot tell what country is really operating under, you shouldn't be discussing in this thread.

The fact is that Genocides, GDP/GNP's, aside these countries are much more powerful now than at the turn of the century or even in 1945, 1949, and 1959 for Cuba.

How so? Growing GDP/GNPs bring in more tax revenue thus allowing the government to spend more, thus increasing its power. If the GDP/GNP decline (a decline in the buying and selling of goods) there is less tax collection, and that is what happened in Cuba.

These now have self determination like never before.

I don't know if you are kidding or what. Cuba, China and Vietnam are one party states. There is little-no self determination to speak of.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
The Dominican Republic had some of the fastest economic growth rates.

Well it is hard discussing it with Pax since he doesn't have a clue what economic system really runs China. It is very capitalist.

The problem with Haiti is mainly the result of the years of misrule by the Papa Doc and Baby Doc regimes (Duvalier family). And further mismanagement under Aristide. Communism or socialism won't fix this and will only mess things up further.

From my readings the problem with Haiti started in 1789 when the U.S. first began to interfere in Haiti affairs.

Giancarlo, I'm not saying that China and Vietnam do not operate Free markets. Refer back to my argument that a Socialist/Communist or otherwise strong central government would be needed end the build up of Haiti. Similar to the system in Cuba, China, or Vietnam. Those countries are relatively stable.

Look at it this way. A free market economy in Haiti mmight be bad because the Haitians have no means to buy the products at market price. In order to get a product say soap at $1.00 dollar a Haitian might need to work for pennies. As the need for jobs is high and the available jobs low then a manufacturer can potentially hire workers for cheaper than a Nike sweatshop currently charges.Good for the Freemarket Capitalist but bad for the Haitian. Who still can't afford his bar of soap. How long will it take this Haitian to get his soap. The more he works in Giancarlo's sweatshop the more he needs a bath. Why not have a strong central government set a wage and enter into an agreement with companies to manufacturer products for an agreed upon amount that will get dollars into Haitian pockets sooner than the President of Nike's plan to get labor for as cheap as possible. When I say Haitian pockets I'm talking about the workers.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

From my readings the problem with Haiti started in 1789 when the U.S. first began to interfere in Haiti affairs.

Of course you turn to blame the US for the f**k ups of the Duvaliers. And it was more so the French and previously the Spanish who were involved in Haiti, not the US.

http://www.ipacademy.org/Publications/Reports/Research/PublRepoReseHaitPrint.htm

"After two centuries of Spanish and French colonial rule, and in the wake of the French Revolution and a new government based on the "Rights of Man," Haiti's slave population began a struggle to win political rights equal to those possessed by the island's white and Creole elites. After a twelve-year struggle, in which the hero of Haiti's Africans -- Toussaint d'Ouverture -- was betrayed and died in French captivity, the island achieved independence from France in 1804 but won little equity for its predominantly slave population.

The circumstances of its birth as an independent state bestowed four potentially destructive legacies on Haitian society. First, the capture of Toussaint in 1802 passed the reins of the country to the hands of the local Creole aristocracy. Second, the precipitous and brutal changes of leadership during these formative years became the model for a history of turbulent transitions through 1996. Third, the notoriously violent tactics of Haiti's founding leaders, and also the extensive manipulation of Vodun (voodoo) symbols to inspire and intimidate followers in equal measure, helped shape a culture of political repression that has repeatedly blocked the emergence of democratic institutions. Finally, the protracted wars of independence destroyed the island's flourishing plantation economy. Former slaves became small subsistence farmers, while the Creole aristocracy moved to the towns, where they used government machinery to collect revenues from agriculture for private consumption. Without a concentrated pool of labor available for production, and without an elite interested in serving as entrepreneurs, the Haitian economy came to a standstill, and has remained there ever since.

American involvement in Haiti began with a treaty of recognition in 1864. In 1915, US marines began a nineteen-year occupation of the country in an ostensible effort to counter increasing German influence. Among the enduring effects of the occupation was the creation by American forces of a unified Haitian military and police, and of a small urban-based black middle class whose activities centered around this military. The Americans also tried to convert Haiti into a market economy that would support American commercial and business interests in the region. This included forcing peasants onto road crews and other infrastructure projects, which inspired considerable and violent resistance (leading in one instance to a notorious massacre of unarmed peasants in 1929 (1)). It also contributed to a lasting distrust of American motives.

In 1957, Fran�ois Duvalier, called "Papa Doc," was elected president and built a personal power base by creating a new paramilitary force that would be uniquely loyal to the Duvalier family: the Volunteers for National Security (VSN), also known as the tonton macoutes. Papa Doc deliberately recruited this force from the margins of society in order to ensure that their loyalty was undivided. He granted them immense arbitrary power in the localities, which bought the macoutes worldwide notoriety for their practices of intimidation and terror. It also disrupted existing social patterns and laid the ground for later upheaval. Duvalier won additional support through a skillful use of Vodun symbols and practices, his activities ranging from the mundane (changing red to black in the Haitian flag and claiming to be an incarnation of the prominent spirit Baron Samedi) to the macabre (asserting that he held captive the spirit of Abraham Lincoln). Once having brought Haiti's institutions under the complete control of the executive, Papa Doc declared himself "President for Life" in 1964.

Papa Doc was succeeded after his death in 1971 by his son Jean-Claude, or "Baby Doc," who ruled with neither as heavy nor as effective a hand as his father. Baby Doc's diminishing control of the national government was accompanied by mounting economic pressures on both countryside and city through the 1980s. Large-scale commercialization in agriculture drove rural poor into the cities which experienced a dramatic growth in urban poverty as a result. By 1986, Baby Doc's weakness in the context of explosive social tension drove former regime loyalists into opposition, and the president was forced to flee the country.

Baby Doc's exit, and the end of the Duvalier regime, signified a new era in Haitian politics. By contrast to earlier transitions which had emerged from competition among elites, the battleground in Haiti now marked a struggle between elites and the general population. In this context, the Haitian elite joined with the Forces ArmÈe d'Haiti (FAd'H), and remnants of the macoutes, to suppress popular uprisings. After repeated attacks by the Army and the macoutes against voters, elections were canceled, and the first of several short-term presidents was put in power.(2)"

http://www.ipacademy.org/Publications/Reports/Research/PublRepoReseHaitPrint.htm

Giancarlo, I'm not saying that China and Vietnam do not operate Free markets. Refer back to my argument that a Socialist/Communist or otherwise strong central government would be needed end the build up of Haiti.

No. This is not right. What Haiti needs is a reconstruction and then an influx of private investment like the Dominican Republic has had. The Dominican Republic is a representative democracy and maintains a GDP per capita of about $6,300 and growth rates of near 4.5%.

Also using the term "socialist/communist" to describe China or Vietnam is inaccurate at best.

Similar to the system in Cuba, China, or Vietnam. Those countries are relatively stable.

And why not model after its neighbor, the Dominican Republic? Which is better off economically than Cuba or Vietnam?

Look at it this way. A free market economy in Haiti mmight be bad because the Haitians have no means to buy the products at market price. In order to get a product say soap at $1.00 dollar a Haitian might need to work for pennies.

You wouldn't sell it at $1.00 first off. You would sell it at prices they could afford. And by doing that, they would receive lower quality products. Better than no products. To improve their buying power, Foreign Direct Investment must be attracted.

Good for the Freemarket Capitalist but bad for the Haitian.

So no jobs for them at all? What are we supposed to give them? Turn them into another Puerto Rico where billions of dollars goes into paying people more for being unemployed then working?

Who still can't afford his bar of soap. How long will it take this Haitian to get his soap.

So we give them no jobs? Or we establish a ****ty government which lowers the prices and controls the production so the country could really get further into mismanagement or corruption? You my friend, are foolish beyond belief.

Why not have a strong central government set a wage and enter into an agreement with companies to manufacturer products

First off that violates every idea of capitalism. Communism is unacceptable. You can't set a wage on a relatively uneducated group of people. What needs to be done is building infrastructure to educate them so they have what it takes to get better jobs thus attracting more FDI. The government has one task and that is to build up schools that don't even exist. Setting the wage will do nothing to help Haiti.

When I say Haitian pockets I'm talking about the workers.

You have virtually no clue about what you are talking about. Why should you pay more money for unskilled workers? They have to be educated for companies to pay them more.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
For the last damn time neither China or Vietnam are not communist.

China did not become powerful under any socialist economic system it had. It became powerful because of the opening up of its market, which is associated with capitalism. China's state sectors reeks with corruption and mismanagement (take the rampant coal accidents that kill thousands each year). It was actually capitalism and private companies that came up to prop up China. NOT COMMUNISM.

I am sorry but if you cannot tell what country is really operating under, you shouldn't be discussing in this thread.

I don't know if you are kidding or what. Cuba, China and Vietnam are one party states. There is little-no self determination to speak of.

China and Vietnam will be communist until they declasre themselves otherwise. It's not your decision or mine.

China has at least been powerful since the time they fought the UN(US) forces in the Korean War. The ability to project force outside your borders is power. China did not have it before becoming Communist.

You are missing the point of this thread. The question is what ideas do you have to get Haiti on the track to stability. It's not attacks Pax's ideas especially if you cannot come up with something better.

Self determination as I define it is when the power is inside the country an does not come from an outside source. Such as the U.S., Russia, France, U.K., or etc.

many countries look to Europe, Russia or the U.S. before making decisions. Cuba sticks it's finger at the U.S. I'm not saying that that is good. I'm just saying that Cuban power lies in Cuba and they don't kiss butt. Not even Russia.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

China and Vietnam will be communist until they declasre themselves otherwise. It's not your decision or mine.

You are laughable beyond belief. China and Vietnam are not communist. If they were communist, there would be no private sector in either country and the entire economy would be controlled by the state. That is certainly not the case. They can state whatever they want. Remember the "Democratic Republic of Kampuchea"? What type of government was it? Pol Pot's regime exactly that murdered about 21% of the population.

China has at least been powerful since the time they fought the UN(US) forces in the Korean War. The ability to project force outside your borders is power. China did not have it before becoming Communist.

China lost so many men in the Korean war it isn't even funny. And they were defeated by Vietnam in a short border war after the Vietnam war. And China did a few times project its force beyond its borders before the communist revolution.

You are missing the point of this thread. The question is what ideas do you have to get Haiti on the track to stability. It's not attacks Pax's ideas especially if you cannot come up with something better.

I already presented my ideas on how Haiti should be better. But I also have the right to dispute what you say, especially when it's totally inaccurate.

Self determination as I define it is when the power is inside the country an does not come from an outside source. Such as the U.S., Russia, France, U.K., or etc.

You are full of crap. Self determination is where people vote for a government.

I'm just saying that Cuban power lies in Cuba and they don't kiss butt. Not even Russia.

Yes they kiss Russia's ass all the time. They still do it. They received billions upon billions of dollars from Russia. They allowed the Russians to post missiles on their island. You have no concept of the history of Fidel's regime.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You have virtually no clue about what you are talking about. Why should you pay more money for unskilled workers? They have to be educated for companies to pay them more.

Why are you so insulting in all your comments? Do you need a hug or something.

I did not say you should pay more for unskilled labor. I advocate a fair amount verse the lowest possible amount. You have no idea how capitalism really works. My job as a capitalist is not to be fair but to make money. If I can employ children I will. If I have to abandon a community to make even more money I will. You obviously have no idea why we have child labor laws or why slavery was outlawed. You obviously have no idea about a lot of things. Capitalism is Darwinian it allows for the strongest to flourish and the weak to die. The haitians don't have a chance if you trust there future to Corporations. American money was made on cheap labor. The difference between system setup China and Cuba is that the government has more of an interest in the welfare of its people than a corporation ever will.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

Why are you so insulting in all your comments? Do you need a hug or something.

You really ignored that entire source I brought up, and ignored every other single point I make. I mean this is why I am not taken seriously here. I grew sick of trying to debate with people like you here... so I decided to be more comical than serious. In this debate I have been serious because I see serious flaws in your reasoning and it caught my attention.

I advocate a fair amount verse the lowest possible amount.

I never advocated the lowest possible amount being paid.

You have no idea how capitalism really works. My job as a capitalist is not to be fair but to make money. If I can employ children I will.

That's not capitalism. In capitalism, people have the opportunity to succeed and are treated fairly. I know a lot more about capitalism than you do. You have completely no idea on how capitalism works.

If I have to abandon a community to make even more money I will. You obviously have no idea why we have child labor laws or why slavery was outlawed.

It has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. Teddy Roosevelt is his name and he is one of my personal idols. It is not anti-capitalist to advocate child labor laws (which I certainly do not oppose, but rather child labor laws are necessary to prevent inhumane conditions). I am not your big evil capitalist that you try to paint me out as. In fact the system I boast is not the evil one you try to paint it as. It is not like that at all.

You obviously have no idea about a lot of things.

I have more of an idea on how economics works. And you managed to ignore every other point I make. You ignore my points on the Duvalier family, which you have no clue about.

Capitalism is Darwinian it allows for the strongest to flourish and the weak to die.

That's stupid. Capitalism generates a middle class. This isn't feudalism or the pre-industrial (or even industrial) economic system.

The haitians don't have a chance if you trust there future to Corporations.

Yes they do. They don't have a chance in your idea of government. They have to learn they need to get an education to succeed like their neighbors, the Dominicans which have one of the most successful economics in the area.

American money was made on cheap labor. The difference between system setup China and Cuba is that the government has more of an interest in the welfare of its people than a corporation ever will.

That's bull****. China has millions upon millions who are unemployed. AIDs is virtually denied existing even when it infects millions, who are neglected. In the US and Europe rather, these people are addressed. It seems like capitalist countries have way more of an interest in the welfare of the people. Cuba and China execute political opponents and run political opponents over with tanks.

You really got no clue and shouldn't even bother. Your ideas are laughable at best.

[The Mad Monk]

Pax Africanus, please explain the difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

[Giancarlo]

I'll do it for him.

Haiti: About 80% of the population lives in abject poverty. Nearly 70% of all Haitians depend on the agriculture sector, which consists mainly of small-scale subsistence farming and employs about two-thirds of the economically active work force. Following legislative elections in May 2000, fraught with irregularities, international donors - including the US and EU - suspended almost all aid to Haiti. The economy shrank an estimated 1.2% in 2001 and an estimated 0.9% in 2002. The contraction will likely intensify in 2003 unless a political agreement with donors is reached on economic policy. Suspended aid and loan disbursements totaled more than $500 million at the start of 2003.

GDP: purchasing power parity - $10.6 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: (-0.9% (2002 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $1,400 (2002 est.)

Dominican Republic: The Dominican Republic's economy experienced dramatic growth over the last decade, even though the economy was hit hard by Hurricane Georges in 1998. Although the country has long been viewed primarily as an exporter of sugar, coffee, and tobacco, in recent years the service sector has overtaken agriculture as the economy's largest employer, due to growth in tourism and free trade zones. The country suffers from marked income inequality; the poorest half of the population receives less than one-fifth of GNP, while the richest 10% enjoy nearly 40% of national income. Growth probably will slow in 2003 with reduced tourism and expected low growth in the US economy, the source of 87% of export revenues.

GDP: purchasing power parity - $53.78 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: 4.1% (2002 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $6,300 (2002 est.)

Source - CIA Factbook

[The Mad Monk]

Also look at literacy rates (~53% vs. ~85%), infant mortality rates (~76/1000 vs ~34/1000), median age (~18 vs. ~23), life expectancy (~52 vs. ~68), and births/deaths per 1,000 (34/13 vs. 24/7); the sex ratios are especially telling -- while both start with 1.05 m/f at birth, the Dominican Republic retains that ratio until the 65+ bracket, while Haiti plummets to 0.95 m/f in the 15 to 64 bracket.

[The Mad Monk]

Here's Cuba:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

I'm can't be bothered to transcribe it all, but suffice it to say that Cuba has less than half the per capita GDP of the Dominican Republic, but has significantly higher literacy and life expectancy.

[Az]

You're a communist traitor, TMM.

[The Mad Monk]

Begone, Zionist lackey!

[Pax]

Giancarlo,
I'm not ignoring your points. I'm not saying that Capitalist Countries or Capitalists are evil. I am stating the truth. The job of a Capitalist is to make money not create a middle class or spread the wealth. In fact, I love living in the U.S. and hope be able to start a business after I retire from the military. Whatever I sale, I intend to charge as much money as the market will allow. If I were to open a factory anywhere in the world, I would try to get the cheapest labor that I could. What prevents me from doing this in the U.S. is not because the American Businessman is a stand up guy. It's because our strong central government instituted all kinds of labor and business laws designed to hopefully give Americans a fighting chance against big business. These labor and business laws that provide protection to American citizen are socialist by nature. WIthout this regulation by government the average citizen would be screwed. Have you ever heard of company towns.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
My point is that strong central governments historically have been successful in enforcing peace.

My point is that you are currently witnessing what the type of government you are proposing (strongman rule) leaves in its wake on the Haitian half of thier island. You really haven't done anything to answer that other than to suggest that an enlightened despot could turn the tide of Haitian history.