The Haitian Solution

[Giancarlo]

I'm NOT talking about extra bureaucracy (sheesh there you go again pulling words out of thin air I never said). I want a smaller central government than you want, and if anything, your system will come with extra corruption.

And never have I said there shouldn't be clear laws or a government that would maintain security and a pass a proper budget. What is not needed is heavy or moderate government interference with the economy as you propose.

[Pax]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You still didn't answer my question. So far your only answer seems to be a slightly stupid chant that because dictator has fuzzy feelings about people and stuff he maight not be all bad.

I may not be able to answer your question without sounding stupid. I'm just not as smart as you. My point is that strong central governments historically have been successful in enforcing peace. That's the first step in getting business into the country. Knowing that your investments won't be looted. Stron central governments in several countries such as Cuba, Vietnam, and China have been successful becoming independent of outside military powers and to and extent making them economic and or military powers of scale. Agreed that these countries are guilty of human rights violations but so was the U.S. during its period of industrialization. The system in Haiti works that even if you are fairly elected you can be uprooted by the military or enough armed men. This is no good. The government needs to be strong enough that it cannot be destroyed by force of arms. Having a dictator or strong central government that the people know is looking out for them will do a lot for stability. Cuba and China both came to power fighting against supposed Democracies that did not have the support of the people. If these two countries would have remained the way they were they would have continued to be weak. I hope this is not too stupid

[DaShi]

There's a Haitian music store in Hangzhou.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Haiti's only option now is to follow every UN/US recomendation and wait for the loans and grants to flow in. Combine this with a responsible and non-corrupt Haitian government with some kind of a sustainable plan for recovery and development and Haiti should be on the road to recovery.

Hm, right, really.

Point me to an example that a third country does well after getting all the IMF/WB loans with strings.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by VetLegion
You won't believe this, but even a corrupt "democracy" and/or a dictatorship is usually in long term better than communism.

In the long term, we all die.

In fact, in the long term, nothing would matter.

[The Mad Monk]

What about the Dominican Republic? How have they been doing?

If they are significantly better off than Haiti, what are they doing right, that the Haitians are doing wrong?

[The Mad Monk]

Dominican Republic

Haiti

Wow. The contrasts are, in fact, staggering.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


In the long term, we all die.

In fact, in the long term, nothing would matter.

Then why even post?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


In the long term, we all die.

In fact, in the long term, nothing would matter.

It takes a country a short time to recover from a hunta when the conditions are right. It takes a country much longer time to recover from communism. And it's harder.

[Pax]

I once again point out that some countries can and have actually benefitted from communism/socialism. I believe Cuba, Vietnam, and China at least. Other countries that were satellites of the Soviet Union probably did not benefit at all. Also, countries that were involved in the cold war that had to spend enormous amounts of there resources, time, and effort did not benefit from communism/socialism. This has more to do with the leaders of to ideologies setting themselves up to compete for power than rebuilding a country. The idea behind communism and socialism is not inherently evil. But they do grow out of a need for change.

[Giancarlo]

And I'll point out you are completely wrong. Vietnam and China are not really communist or even socialist, they have capitalist economic systems. China is definitely capitalist. Most of the growth is associated to the opening up of China, the opening up of the market.

[Ned]

Pax, Cuba? Its economy is 1/10 of what it used to be and you say that communism has benefited Cuba?

Communism began to benefit China only when it turned away from socialism.

Communism hardly benefited Vietnam. And I wonder if you support the current genocide under way in Vietnam against the Montagnard people.

PAX, you obviously do not care about facts, assuming that you knew the above and still supported Communism.

[The Mad Monk]

Nuts.

There's a much more successful nation literally right next door to Haiti. Copy them.

[Giancarlo]

The Dominican Republic had some of the fastest economic growth rates.

Well it is hard discussing it with Pax since he doesn't have a clue what economic system really runs China. It is very capitalist.

The problem with Haiti is mainly the result of the years of misrule by the Papa Doc and Baby Doc regimes (Duvalier family). And further mismanagement under Aristide. Communism or socialism won't fix this and will only mess things up further.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ned
Pax, Cuba? Its economy is 1/10 of what it used to be and you say that communism has benefited Cuba?

Communism began to benefit China only when it turned away from socialism.

Communism hardly benefited Vietnam. And I wonder if you support the current genocide under way in Vietnam against the Montagnard people.

PAX, you obviously do not care about facts, assuming that you knew the above and still supported Communism.

No I don't know everything. I do know that if a country adopts a form of government that does not mean that this is why they committed some evil. We are communist so we must commit genocide. NO.
When you say Cuba is 1/10 of what it was what does that really mean. NOTHING. Why, because it does not really speak to wheter or not the average citizen is better off under Castro or Batista. I personally think Castro.
Once again are the Chinese better off now or at the turn of the century. Are they still considered the weak men of asia. When did this change. Under Communism you say.

The fact is that Genocides, GDP/GNP's, aside these countries are much more powerful now than at the turn of the century or even in 1945, 1949, and 1959 for Cuba. These now have self determination like never before.