"Heads will roll...just watch me"

[FS*]

The solution? all the first nations get together, sue the pants off us in court, and reclaim the soil. English and French jointly wind up learning how to breathe underwater.

[Fake Boris]

You guys forgot to talk about the Marijuana party. I'll be voting for them.

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by joncha
The national question is the key to understanding Canadian politics. From a Quebec point of view, Canada has two founding nations, french and english. Thus Quebec should get 50% of the pie.

I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be good stuff.

[joncha]

Originally posted by Richelieu


I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be good stuff.

Yeah... I must have hallucinated that whole referendum thing. The equality of nations idea is just a product of my imagination.

jon.

[Ben Kenobi]

The equality of nations

How many 'nations' are there in Quebec? I seem to remember them recognising 17. So by that logic, of equality of nations, the Quebecois should get 1/17 of the votes in Quebec.

Can't forget the nations that were here long before the Europeans.

[Ben Kenobi]

"It's not going to be a secret to people in Atlantic Canada that they don't feel very optimistic about their prospects and that's why children and grandchildren have been leaving that region for years," he said. "We're going to change that."

You have to look at Atlantic Canada as a whole, rather than just New Brunswick, or Nova Scotia. Population of Newfoundland is declining, with many young people leaving to go out west.

Secondly, so long as they are recipients of transfer payments, that is going to continue to rankle folks in the West and Ontario.

So, he wants people in Atlantic Canada to have jobs, and to have young people stay there. I don't see that as very provocative. Good for Stephen Harper.

[joncha]

I agree with you BK (did I really say that?). But one of the key Quebec Nationalist positions is that french canada and english canada were the founding nations of conferation, and thus Quebec should be on equal footing with the RoC.

First Nations have a similar argument, in that many (if not all) want to deal with the federal government on a nation-to-nation basis.

One of Chretien's strengths (and it's a typically Chretien weaselly strength) was his ability to play one off the other without actually conceding to either.

jon.


edit: cross-post... I was commenting on Ben's first comment, not the second one

[Ben Kenobi]

jon:

It makes no sense to divide the population of Canada into two nations, French and English. Over here in BC, I could easily list 10 different languages that are more prevalent than French.

I would argue that this diversity (we are one of the most diverse) would be better represented by Canadians first last and foremost, without making distinctions between French and English.

BTW- Quebec, only has 1/4 of the votes in Canada, so why should they be apportioned 50% of the votes?

We have gone beyond the confines of Confederation, and the system should represent Canada as it is, not the one it was.

[joncha]

BK: This is why the national movement in Quebec has the strength it does: if they were independent, they would get 100% of the votes.

It's not as simplistic as that either. In any federal system, balances are made to ensure democratic expression. The House of Commons is set up to ensure the equality of the individual (more or less). A "triple-e" senate is redundant because it would do basically the same. A senate based (loosely) on the American model would ensure the equality of provinces. The House of Nations idea could work to ensure that the founding nations of Canada (however they are defined) would have equality. One idea might be 1/3 English Canada, 1/3 Quebec, 1/3 First Nations.

I don't pretend to argue that this is necessarily a great idea. However, unless and until the majority of Quebecois feel comfortable with their place in Canada (and the rest of Canada accepts it!) we will continue to have the same problems come up again and again. The whole reason we're in this mess in the first place is because Trudeau forced his vision of Canada on Quebec, and Mulroney failed to fix it. Pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.

jon.

[Ben Kenobi]

is because Trudeau forced his vision of Canada on Quebec, and Mulroney failed to fix it. Pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.

I agree. However, Quebec needs to realise just how good they have it here in Canada, how much their language rights are respected and upheld. I cannot think of a minority that gets as much respect as the Quebecois do in Canada.

Put the question, but if they do not agree with the constitution, then Quebec has some hard decisions to make. Do they want to leave, or are they willing to compromise on the offerings given to them by Canada?

[joncha]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I agree. However, Quebec needs to realise just how good they have it here in Canada, how much their language rights are respected and upheld. I cannot think of a minority that gets as much respect as the Quebecois do in Canada.

Put the question, but if they do not agree with the constitution, then Quebec has some hard decisions to make. Do they want to leave, or are they willing to compromise on the offerings given to them by Canada?

I agree with basically everything you say here. The point I'm making is that it's Quebec's choice to make, and that the terms of debate in Quebec, and thus their rationale for deciding, is very different than it is in English Canada.

jon.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Wezil
Well.

Three pages now and still no defense of Mr Martin (although the political debate was entertaining it was somewhat OT for the thread).

Since no Liberal apparently wants to defend the man, how about telling me why you plan to vote for him anyway?

A lack of alternatives was mentioned earlier. To me, any party caught with both hands in the till CAN NOT be voted for. Any alternative seems better.

The poll says 39% of Cdns support the Liberals (still). So where are you all?

Well, having listened to him this afternoon, it seems he will play several cards...

What happened was not something that Liberals in general approved of, and most Liberals would love nothing better than to see whoever is responsible in jail. He sited departmental internal audits that saw no criminal activity, but that found administrative problems which were supposedly addressed.

The problem is bigger than what happened in this instance. Corruption has happened before under governments of different parties. He is therefore going to argue that reform of the institutions is equally important to finding the culprits in this instance of the disease.

He did not know what was happening, and he had no power of enquiry to find out. The Finance Department does not oversee federal spending after allocation, the Treasury Board does.

He is commited to better government and fell out with the previous administration over issues of how things should be run. He does not want to bribe Quebec to be contented, he wants to build a country that Quebec (and other disenchanted regions) would be proud of and would want to remain part of.

He is going to campaign as the straight shooter who fell out with the 'bad old boys'. He is going to ask Canadians to entrust him with reforming our institutions with the goal of making such thefts less likely or harder to pull off in the future.

He is going to ask Canadians to believe.

[Ben Kenobi]

going to ask Canadians to believe.

So they just gotta have faith, eh? Faith in men?

[Asher]

Faith in homosexuality.

[Zylka]

He's playing it right for the press; for the time being

Good-bye Conservative Alliance crashing of the majority parliament. And after the elections, the west is f*cked once again.