The Fwench.

[Tripledoc]

Regarding freedom of religious expression.

The headscarf is not about religious expression. It is a demand laid down in the Koran.

So, for instance, I will now go and tell all women to shut up in congregations, because that is what the bible says. That is within my rights of religious expression.

I think I will go and stone my adulterous neighbours to death too.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Regarding freedom of religious expression.

The headscarf is not about religious expression. It is a demand laid down in the Koran.

So, for instance, I will now go and tell all women to shut up in congregations, because that is what the bible says. That is within my rights of religious expression.

I think I will go and stone my adulterous neighbours to death too.

Believe it or not, wearing a headscarf is not opressive for women if they are willing to wear it, as part of their custom.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
The headscarf is not about religious expression. It is a demand laid down in the Koran.

Not exactly.
The Kuran demands women not to look attractive. The precise garb is entirely a matter of tradition and interpretation. In Northern Africa, it is a simple headscarf, or even sometimes a bandana. In Afghanistan, it is the whole fricking burka. Yet, every religious zealot will tell you that's God's will.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
Believe it or not, wearing a headscarf is not opressive for women if they are willing to wear it, as part of their custom.

Young Muslims wear the headscarf in Europe because it gives them a sense of identity.

In Saudi Arabia last week a famous Saudi business woman, deliberately, took her headscarf off a bit so that it did not cover her hair completely. She railed aganist the oppression of women in Saudi Arabia, and her speech was met with thundeous applause by the many young Saudi women there. Naturally chaos ensued, and the religious clerics went nuts.

Now, in Saudi Arabia the women are figthing a battle to be more free.

In France a very little minority of religious fundamentalist women want to be free to wear the headscarf. Even though that freedom is a freedom which they are demanded to exercise according to the Koran.

How can you demand that people be free to wear the headscarf, yet not give them the freedom not to wear the headscarf?

[MrFun]

Duh, Tripledoc -- I'm not saying that women should be forced to wear the headscarf -- it should be their choice, and if they choose to wear it in public, they should not be discriminated against for doing so.

[duke o' york]

p_c: your continual use of the word "fwench" suggests that you're being a bit of a trat in this thwead.

[Ming]

Originally posted by duke o' york
p_c: your continual use of the word "fwench" suggests that you're being a bit of a trat in this thwead.

I agree... I was going to close this troll based on the opening post... but it seems like a real discussion is being attempted.

But if this goes the troll route... it will be toast.

[Tripledoc]

As Spiffor said the headscarf is worn, because the men are are scared that the women should attractive.

I see many young muslim women wearing a headscarf, and that kind of headscarf they wear do not make them any less attactive.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Or maybe that's just another Rosbif lame word to depict our glorious people?

HE couldn't use 'frogs' because its now considered a term of endearment by many.

[Akka]

Originally posted by MrFun
So freedom of religious expression is not something to be respected?

that's lovely

I don't remember any law saying that people aren't free to believe in what they want, or prevented to build and attend to place suiting their beliefs, or anything like that.

UNLESS, it goes against the laws of the state.
The laws of the state say : religion is a personnal matter, that should NOT be mixed with the State.
Public school are run by the state.
Hence, no religion in public school.


Some are able to understand the concept of neutral ground and keeping personnal opinions outside state-run institutions.
Others just shout "fascists" and claim there is religious oppression.

[duke o' york]

Spiffor, ne vous inquiètez pas. Il y a beaucoup de gens de l'autre côté de la Manche qui s'en foutent de ceux qui veulent attacquer nos voisins francais. N'importe que disent les journaux "moins chers" anglais - il n'y a pas beaucoup qui pensent comme ça.

Un francophile.

[problem_child]

look, the whole spelling France/French with a 'w' thing... I personaly can never seem to resist, I dunno why but I find it humorous and harmless, I think it's because I watched a Monty Python sketch somehwhere that also has me occasionally reffering to 'Inglis PeegDogs!'

You're right, it's not funny (for others) or clever (probably) but it's certainly wasn't intended to dominate what I think is a real discussion about Frances current issue with secularism or intolerance. That- and it's incredibly bad form in my opinion to have to explain a joke- ever, no matter how bad or mindless, better to just drop it and move on. I don't intend to seriously insult the French, and I have already admitted that I am bigotted against religions across the board (baring secular buddism and taosim)

Furthermore I think it's pretty rich for muslims to demand the right of people to wear what they will in a libertarian secular society, when non-islamic women travelling in the muslim world can find themselves harrased or even beaten for not observing the customs of a religion to which they do not even belong.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by problem_child
I have already admitted that I am bigotted against religions across the board (baring secular buddism and taosim)

What about the Viking faith. You know Thor and Odin and so on?

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Akka

I don't remember any law saying that people aren't free to believe in what they want, or prevented to build and attend to place suiting their beliefs, or anything like that.

UNLESS, it goes against the laws of the state.
The laws of the state say : religion is a personnal matter, that should NOT be mixed with the State.
Public school are run by the state.
Hence, no religion in public school.


Some are able to understand the concept of neutral ground and keeping personnal opinions outside state-run institutions.
Others just shout "fascists" and claim there is religious oppression.

:b

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


What about the Viking faith. You know Thor and Odin and so on?

You could say that there are two categories of religion, those that see god and his universe that he made, and those that see the universe itself- as god. In my opinion, the later category, isn't really religion, it's usually just philosophy and meditation techniques and good methods of dealing with stress or the inherant futility of will itself. The former catagory usually consists of various laws, commandments, and homocentric assertions regarding nature and time. Often, followers of that category of religion appear to reffer to a god that bears all the hallmarks of some kind of cosmic totalitarian dictator, underground gulags and glittering pleasure-palaces for those who tow the party line included.