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Originally posted by Tripledoc
Yeah well. He is not answering my trolling so I think he has put me on ignore.
That's a good idea.
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Ned, you're wrong, France and Germany did not side with the enemy. They sided with the UN, and that was their good right. Iraq had not attacked the US, so the NATO rule of mutually support in case of an attack against one member did not play a role.
After 9/11, when the US really was attacked, both nations had not the slightest problem to support the US. But Iraq was a completely different case.
Also, Germany and France made clear that an Iraqi attack on Turkey would not be tolerated, and then they would help as NATO members. The only difference was that Germany and France did not agree initially (february 10, 2003) with the steps planned to protect Turkey, but they agreed a week later (february 17, 2003). The reason for this were differences about whtether those steps would mean that a war is the only solution for the problem - a view wich France and Germany did not share.
Oh, and I can't believe that you simply continue with that "we hate the US" part. Maybe some Germans do, but others do not. Since when is it a good idea to generalize from such individual views into a stereotype about an entire people?
Tripledoc, the Marshall-Plan was responsible for the (West-) German "Wirtschaftswunder", at least to a good part, as a kind of "help to get started". This is generally accepted as a fact in Germany.
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Originally posted by BeBro
Tripledoc, the Marshall-Plan was responsible for the (West-) German "Wirtschaftswunder", at least to a good part, as a kind of "help to get started". This is generally accepted as a fact in Germany.
I disagree wholeheartedly.
From Nationmaster.com:
In the 1980s criticism of the Marshall Plan's claim to a decisive role in Europe's recovery developed. These critics point out that growth in many European countries revived before the large-scale arrival of U.S. aid, and was fastest among some of the lesser recipients. While Marshall aid eased immediate difficulties and contributed to the recovery of some key sectors, growth from the post-war nadir was largely an independent process. The first person to make this argument was the economic historian Alan S. Milward. European socialists argue that a similar amount of reconstruction money could have been obtained by nationalizing the holdings of wealthy Europeans who deposited their money in US banks during World War II.
In other words the Marshall help was largely indirectly funded by the liquid funds that Europeans put into American banks during the war. No?
Had the US confiscated these funds for its own use, this would only have meant a slight delay in the reconstruction of Europe. This according to an American scholar (Milward).
Originally posted by Tripledoc
In other words the Marshall help was largely indirectly funded by the liquid funds that Europeans put into American banks during the war. No?
Had the US confiscated these funds for its own use, this would only have meant a slight delay in the reconstruction of Europe. This according to an American scholar (Milward).
Nobody claims that Euro states would have never recovered from WWII without the ERP. Also, everyone knows that the ERP was not done without self-interest from the USA. Still one cannot ignore that it was a practical help.
German scientists like Wolfgang Benz argue that in a concrete situation of the late 1940ies the ERP helped to buy resources needed to restart the own production, and that without this help the recovery would have come several years later. A "slight delay" can make a big difference, when we discuss whether a national economy recovers some years earlier or not. Just look at Eastern Germany, where the same aid was not given, because the Soviet Union refused to take it because of political reasons.
Also, the ERP was the first step to integrate Western Germany into the Western European economy after 45.
BeBro, and fellow Germans, my apologies. It seems from your posts that there is indeed a great deal of goodwill towards America in Germany.
As to the point about all this being in the past, that is hardly the case as many Americans still alive and kicking were alive and kicking during WWII even if they did not participate. Their fathers, uncles and grandparents fought in that war and manned the armies that for decades stood off the Bear. Their taxes went to pay for the protection of Germany and the Marshall Plan. For all that, we have a free and prosperous Germany -- that is free to disagree with us, unlike the situation would be had the Soviets won the cold war.
Still, put yourselves in our shoes just for a moment. We were attacked and an old enemy, Saddam, appeared to be very chummy with the terrorist organization that attacked us and also appeared to be in open defiance of the UN concerning WMD. We make the call that our security was at stake and called on Germany for help. Germany disagreed with our assessment and says no that it will not help. Perhaps the German assessment was better than ours. Perpaps it was not. But the point remains that it was OUR security that was at stake, not Germany's, and Germany said no when we asked.
A true friend and ally perhaps would not have said no particularly under circumstances where its own interests were only marginally at risk.
As to the point about the people being against the war, it seems that this attitude was greatly influenced by European media who virtually campaigned against the war claiming that it was all about America's Imperialism and not about its security. Not so?
true friend and ally perhaps would not have said no particularly under circumstances where its own interests were only marginally at risk.
The world tried telling the US that it's intelligence was flawed, that Iraq had done nothing to the US, and that there were bigger threats out there.
The US response was that they were no longer allies. The American people condemned them as enemies.
And now the US has become an international pariah. Why should any nation respect you after the disrespect you have shown towards them?
true friend and ally perhaps would not have said no particularly under circumstances where its own interests were only marginally at risk.
The world tried telling the US that it's intelligence was flawed, that Iraq had done nothing to the US, and that there were bigger threats out there.
The US response was that they were no longer allies. The American people condemned them as enemies.
And now the US has become an international pariah. Why should any nation respect you after the disrespect you have shown towards them?
Actually, it wasn;t our security. Since no one has yet shown a single piece of evidence of how the Saddam regime was a threat to anyone outside of Iraq.
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