Video of Today's suicide bombing - Jan 29th

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I've seen them with my own eyes, so I don't know why you're still waiting.

In the Line of Fire

OMG own goal, total own goal!

A shell landed on your balcony?

It exploded just a few balconies from us, but there was a burst of fire on our balcony too. We actually couldn't believe it, and then we read that our area had been hit by some new piece of artillery that was being used by the Palestinians.

Chegitz, you have been PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!

[Docfeelgood]

Fvcking animals

[Az]

Agathon, stop talking out of your ass.

Originally posted by Agathon

From the point of view of Sharon, it is about race.

you have no proof of that.

He has long been a proponent of "Eretz Israel" and a supporter of the settlers -

yes.

and they in my view are engaged in a form of ethnic cleansing.

No.

Israeli Arabs have long been complaining about being treated as second class citizens - but that's not the main point. What is, is that Rabin entered the peace process in favour of partition because he knows that demographics are not on the side of the Jews. In ten years Jews will be in the minority in the current territories controlled by Israel.

Yes, that's also one of the reasons why I favor partition. It has nothing to do with racism.

Partition is desirable for this bunch because it ensures the survival of Israel as a "Jewish" state. I have problems with race based states in general (except under certain well defined circumstances)

well, in the millionth time, neither 'jewish' or 'arab' here is not defined by race.

but that's not the pressing problem here. The best thing for all parties in my view would be complete withdrawal of Israel from all the occupied territories and a very limited right of return.

well, the opinion of the most Israeli public is something along those lines, but with no right of return, and some small corrections to the border. The opinion of the palestinian public is quite different.

Anything else is bound to create too much trouble. On the subject of a race based Israeli state, no one is going to quibble if it keeps the peace, even if the notion of a state based on race is repugnant. What does annoy people is when attempts to preserve racial purity cause harm. Of all peoples in the world, the Jews should know this better than anyone else - yet here we have Jews who are quite willing to become the thing they profess to hate. Thank God there are some who still get it - like that Rabbi who stopped the bulldozers the other week. Hurrah for him and all who walk with him!!!

How's that Rabbi connected to racial purity? Israel does not use criteria of race, but of culture and nationality. Those are different things, and I support those criteria. The Jews shouldn't be somehow reminded of their past in europe. Their past in europe has shown that they CANNOT integrate just because of their ethnicity. That even if they completely blend in, they'd be fished out of the pond, and killed, or discriminated. This is not the case in Israel. People that become Israelis and join the Israeli culture are treated as Israelis.

One of the most shameful aspects of this business is the way that opponents of the occupation are painted as "self-hating Jews". For a culture whose relgious practice is constituted in part by intepretation and debate, this is a disgrace. In fact the real Jews are the ones committed to peace - the others have abandoned their history (another big no no in their culture) and sided with the oppressors over the oppressed (again, another big no no).

Whoa, since when do you think that Zionism is keeping with jewish tradition?! On the contrary, Zionism, from it's earliest times has tried to chage jewish tradition and religion, by assuming national responsibility for the fait of those people, and not be allowed to be pushed around as in te past.

However, Sharon has made it clear that he isn't interested in a fair solution. What he wants is a West Bank that is turned into Balkanized Bantustans. This is not much different from South Africa in my view. Or he wants transfer, which would be a major crime against humanity.

This is another claim that you'll have to work rather hard to establish, if you'll be able to establish it, at all.

Sharon is a racist. The minister that the Arabs killed a while back was a racist too. He referred to the Palestinians as lice, in a scary echo of what Nazi officials used to call Jews. Sharon has done almost everything he can to undermine peace and provoke extremism while at the same time trying to blame Arafat, whom he has reduced to an irrelevance in Palestinian circles.

It's quite sad that you know very little about what you're talking about and still have little trouble making such bold claims. Of course, links, and

Sharon and all the other Likudniks are racist scum. The fact that he and his ilk have managed to manipulate Israeli public opinion (in various ways) into direct conflict with the entire Jewish tradition, which is one of peace, tolerance and empathy with the underdog, is a disgrace. Shame on him.

Well, I am proud to tell you that I and most other Israelis have renounced the jewish tradition. That's what zionism is all about, and I am proud of it. And what is that 'empathy with the underdog' bull? This is as stupid as it's reverse, 'might makes right'.

I don't like the suicide bombings, but that doesn't mean that I automatically jump to the Likud view of things. I don't like bulldozing people's houses either, but that doesn't mean I have to support Hamas.

If only one of the bombers could get Sharon. He's a large and slow-moving target. I'd crack open a beer if they did.

Wow, what a great insight

[Az]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Suicide bombing is the culmination of 50 years of oppression. It's a cry for help, it's revenge, it's vengeance. It's young people who believe they have no future and no hope.

And the Zionists still don't get it?

Make a just PEACE now!

There is a wide array of facts that counter your argument:

The vast majority of suicide bombers is middle class. They are not dumb people, they're not crazy. They're well calculated. It's actually a pattern among suicide attacks. The purpetrators aren't cornered animals, or something. The people who are in truly bad shape, the farmers and their families, they're the least active. The suicide bombers have money. Some of them are palestinian policemen.

[Docfeelgood]

Know what you do to a dog that is rabid? Ya kill it.


Rabid people?......


Like I said, they are ANIMALS!

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Azazel


There is a wide array of facts that counter your argument:

The vast majority of suicide bombers is middle class. They are not dumb people, they're not crazy. They're well calculated. It's actually a pattern among suicide attacks.

But isn't that the point? Basically you have sane well educated middle class kids who feel so hopeless, desperate, frustrated and angry that they think the only forward or out is actually strap on a bomb and blow yourself up? This is not a recipe for peace.

[Az]

Point is, they're not the only one that are feeling bad, but still are the only ones that explode, which leads to the conclusion that the feeling bad part isn't the part that makes them explode.

[Alexander's Horse]

I think the difference is they don't have a military force which can match it with the IDF and they are under occupation so they use other means, in some cases very extreme like suicide bombing, to get attention.

It seems to be working - isn't Sharon plummeting in the polls?

[Fake Boris]

Isn't Sharon responsible for the massacre of 600 refugees, when he was an officer in the army?

If so, that qualifies him for racism and crime against humanity.

[Az]

Alexander's Horse:

It seems to be working - isn't Sharon plummeting in the polls?

Erm, that didn't hurt him for 3 years. he's down in polls, but that's due to that corruption investigation going on. ( I hope he's down for THAT, btw )

I think the difference is they don't have a military force which can match it with the IDF and they are under occupation so they use other means, in some cases very extreme like suicide bombing, to get attention.

To get attention to their plight, you mean? no. That can be done much better. They ARE trying to use this as a balancing weapon against Israel, but that doesn't make it right.


Uncle Boris:

Isn't Sharon responsible for the massacre of 600 refugees, when he was an officer in the army?

If so, that qualifies him for racism and crime against humanity.

600 refugees? He's been held inderectly responsible for the murder of 900 palestinians by Chrisitan Lebanonese, but that's administrative responsibility, as he was Minister of Defence then.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Sabra and Shatila

Sharon is guilty of averting his eyes when the Christian Phalange was allowed into the camps and began slaughtering people. Since the Israeli troops could see and hear (in addition to being told by refugees begging for help) what was giong on, Sharon was almost certainly informed, and chose to let the massacre go on for three (?) days before the Israelis finally stepped in and stopped it. He didn't do it, he just let it happen. As the legal authority in that part of Lebanon, that makes him legally responsible.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
Chegitz, you have been PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!

What the hell are you talking about?

[Az]

Sharon is guilty of averting his eyes when the Christian Phalange was allowed into the camps and began slaughtering people. Since the Israeli troops could see and hear (in addition to being told by refugees begging for help) what was giong on, Sharon was almost certainly informed, and chose to let the massacre go on for three (?) days before the Israelis finally stepped in and stopped it. He didn't do it, he just let it happen. As the legal authority in that part of Lebanon, that makes him legally responsible.

a)why is Israel the legal authority in a Lebanese civil war we intervened in?
b) why do you think he was informed about something done by some 20 phalangists in Lebanon as MoD?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel
a)why is Israel the legal authority in a Lebanese civil war we intervened in?

International law. As the occupier, Israel assumed repsonsibility for enforcing the peace, protecting human life and property, etc., just as the U.S. has in Iraq.

b) why do you think he was informed about something done by some 20 phalangists in Lebanon as MoD?

Because something like that would have gone right up the chain of command, especially as the soliders on the ground wanted to stop the massacre. Plus, from what I've read, Sharon was being updated as to the situation there.

[Az]

International law. As the occupier, Israel assumed repsonsibility for enforcing the peace, protecting human life and property, etc., just as the U.S. has in Iraq.

Well, but this isn't that simple. There are also Lebanese Christians that hold that territory, that claim sovereignity. It's not as if Israel has simply occupied the country, it has intervened in a civil war.

Because something like that would have gone right up the chain of command, especially as the soliders on the ground wanted to stop the massacre. Plus, from what I've read, Sharon was being updated as to the situation there.

So, why were they stopped in the end?