Video of Today's suicide bombing - Jan 29th

[Eli]

Israel is occupying Palestinian land and violating the Fourth Geneva convention as well as UN resolutions. If Israelis want sympathy they can stop ****ing the Palestinians over. This attack was in response for an Israeli attack the previous day. I didn't see any pictures of that.

To sum it up, undiscriminate violence can be used as long as you think the goal is just.

[chequita guevara]

That's what Benni Morris argues.

[Eli]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That's what Benni Morris argues.

And Kach.

[Sirotnikov]

And Al-Qaeda.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Agathon

Israel is occupying Palestinian land and violating the Fourth Geneva convention as well as UN resolutions. If Israelis want sympathy they can stop ****ing the Palestinians over. This attack was in response for an Israeli attack the previous day. I didn't see any pictures of that.

Another "equative" hack. What was comparitive target in the Israeli attack, and why would pictures have any of the same intrinsic translation? In short - what's your sympathetic point, if any

Oh, it's all so unfair - isn't it.

[GePap]

To me this conflict is more than 3 years old, it is fifty years old, and I view it in its totality. And in those fifty years, if we take Israeli vs Palestinians, it has been the Palestinians who have lost more, not only land and freedoms but people as well. In the last 3 years about 940 Palestinians civilians and about 750-800 Israeli civilians have died. These last 3 years are the only time in the conflict between the two were the number of israeli dead civilians has been anywhere near those of Palestinians: in all years prior, the number of dead palestinians civlians was far and beyond those of Israelis: true for the first intifadah, true for the 80's and the late 70's (for example, it is estimated 2000 Palestians, mostly Civilians, died in the Israeli incursions into Lebanon in March 1978).

What has happened in the last 5 years is that the level of violence from the palestinians has gone up and from the Israeli down- the fact that this still mean more dead Palestinian civlians than Israeli civilians is one of the reasons I am broadly pro-Palestinian. The level of suffering between the two people from 1950-2004 has been nowhere near similar, and even in the last 3 years of violence, the Palestinians civlians has STILL been worse off than Israeli civilians. What has happened is that the Palestinians have lost thier moral high ground due to thier increasing violence.

As for the video. Honestly, yawn. It is gruesome, no doubt, but if we had been able to see video of, for example, those buildings in gaza destroyed and the 15 victims who died in their sleep when the DF used a 2000lb bomb to assasinate a Hamas leade, would it be FAR more gruesome? NOt really. And in the end, both videos would be but a sad litany: there are countless other ocnflicts in this world-anyone here wan to find A a video of the 100+ people killed in Najaf I believe? Would that be not far more gruesome? and what about some flicks from some hellhole in Africa? Maybe the aftermath of Rwanda? Faining moral outrage ater watching a video is easy, but I remember being a kid and everyone doing nothing even as we looked at film of masses of bodies floating on rivers and lakes form Rwanda, or the gruesome piles of corpses.

Sadly, in the end, this video is nothing but a way to feed "outrage", or simply a way to titilate in a sick way.

[Pekka]

I think the intent is important factor. That is what makes me side with Israel. Palestinian terrorist groups (note, I don't say Palestinians in general!) do target Israeli citizens and want them all dead. That is a fact. THis is IMPORTANT distinction.
Freedom fighters, they would attack the IDF.

Eli, Siro, maybe you can answer this because I haven't really followed the news lately, but has there ever been an incident, where the attack was 100% targetted on IDF, for example ambushing IDF soldiers in bigger scale, or just suicide bomber running to the middle of IDF soldiers and blowing himself up? Sniper activity? Anything?

I guess there has been some incidents, but it's a fact, that they target civilians rather than IDF. THis is why they are not freedom fighters. This is why they are rotten terrorist scum.

Because: Killing bunch of civilians causes more misery than killin few soldiers. So, the IDF are also Israeli, killing them is in the plans of killing all Israelis, so why not do this? Because it wouldn't bring enough chaos and misery. It's not freedom fighting. EVEN if it was, it would be war crimes all over, and the ones ordering these attacks, they'd be war criminals. So you can take your pick, terrorists or war criminals, I like to use the terrorist in this case.

Listen up, if IDF would stop it's number one priority, which is to protect Israel and its citizens, and drop their guns, what do you think would happen? The terrorists want them all dead, they said it themselves, it's not stopping the suicide bombings I mean. It will never stop either. Not unless they are all killed. They will go on forever.

So, if you look at it like this, should the IDF still not react, if the attacks would continue as they would? Of course they should not drop their guns! They should continue what they do, which is to hunt down every last one of the terrorists, even if it's a hopeless task. One killed terrorists is potentially equalling to saving 10 Israeli citizens. Every time you kill a terrorist, you save innocent lives. You can take that to the bank too.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by GePap
To me this conflict is more than 3 years old, it is fifty years old, and I view it in its totality. And in those fifty years, if we take Israeli vs Palestinians, it has been the Palestinians who have lost more, not only land and freedoms but people as well. In the last 3 years about 940 Palestinians civilians and about 750-800 Israeli civilians have died. These last 3 years are the only time in the conflict between the two were the number of israeli dead civilians has been anywhere near those of Palestinians: in all years prior, the number of dead palestinians civlians was far and beyond those of Israelis: true for the first intifadah, true for the 80's and the late 70's (for example, it is estimated 2000 Palestians, mostly Civilians, died in the Israeli incursions into Lebanon in March 1978).

What has happened in the last 5 years is that the level of violence from the palestinians has gone up and from the Israeli down- the fact that this still mean more dead Palestinian civlians than Israeli civilians is one of the reasons I am broadly pro-Palestinian. The level of suffering between the two people from 1950-2004 has been nowhere near similar, and even in the last 3 years of violence, the Palestinians civlians has STILL been worse off than Israeli civilians. What has happened is that the Palestinians have lost thier moral high ground due to thier increasing violence.

As for the video. Honestly, yawn. It is gruesome, no doubt, but if we had been able to see video of, for example, those buildings in gaza destroyed and the 15 victims who died in their sleep when the DF used a 2000lb bomb to assasinate a Hamas leade, would it be FAR more gruesome? NOt really. And in the end, both videos would be but a sad litany: there are countless other ocnflicts in this world-anyone here wan to find A a video of the 100+ people killed in Najaf I believe? Would that be not far more gruesome? and what about some flicks from some hellhole in Africa? Maybe the aftermath of Rwanda? Faining moral outrage ater watching a video is easy, but I remember being a kid and everyone doing nothing even as we looked at film of masses of bodies floating on rivers and lakes form Rwanda, or the gruesome piles of corpses.

Sadly, in the end, this video is nothing but a way to feed "outrage", or simply a way to titilate in a sick way.

Interesting. So I forgot.. you're for the state of Israeli to dismantle?

[Pekka]

And if you have decided to join terrorist organisation like these, you have agreed with their goals, which is to kill all Israelis and drive them to the sea. Even if you have never touched a gun, but have agreed on this and joined, it shows your intentions and you support the organisation and you are potential future bomber, in my eyes you are then free to be buried. It's not guerilla war either. Guerilla tactics sometimes might include increasing the stress levels of local people, but it's MAIN goal is to beat the enemy, which is the army. There is no justification what the terrorists are doing, however there are some justifications what IDF is doing, which is to try to prevent these attacks from happening, and they can't stop them, they can only make the their lines thinner and hoping to take out as many bombers as possible before they strike, or before they strike again. If IDF wouldn't do this, there would be whole lots of more dead Israelis, multiple times more than now.

[Sirotnikov]

but if we had been able to see video of, for example, those buildings in gaza destroyed and the 15 victims who died in their sleep when the DF used a 2000lb bomb to assasinate a Hamas leade, would it be FAR more gruesome? NOt really.

I'm not positively sure, but I think that it was a mistake - the building was thought to be empty of civilians at the time.

What happenned IIRC, is that some adjustant buildings unexpectedly collapsed as well. And yes, it was unpredictable - the IDF has units whose job it is to calculate the amount of damage done to the target. They make mistakes too.


As far as journalists killed in the conflict - they are risking their lives in a battle field. No one promised a safe haven from bullets from either side. Furthermore, the IDF has clear orders on warning shots. If someone - anyone approaches the soldiers from the side of the armed men, they will open fire above the heads first, near the feet next, and finally to the limbs (iirc). It applies to everyone, including journalists.

[Zevico]

Is it just me or is a comparison of numbers between Israeli and Palestinian casualties absolutely ridiculous?
One situation is a battle (in most cases), the other an explosion. How is this comparison in any way relevant?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Zylka


Interesting. So I forgot.. you're for the state of Israeli to dismantle?

No. I am for the state of israel to return to its 1967 borders, with some compromise about Jerusalem.

To quote more numbers meant to put things in perspective: in the last 54 years, about 2500 israelis have been killed by Palestinians (go check out the Israeli Foreing MInistry website for numbers). At least 3 times that number of Palestinians have been killed. The big difference is that while still more palestinians have died in the last 3 years than Israelis, the last 3 years have been BY FAR the bloddiest for Israelis, while not the same for Palestinians (The beginning of the Lebanon war in 1982-85 were deadlier). Only since 1992 have Israeli casualties been in the same order of magnitude as Palestinian loses-which points to far more 'effective' Palestinian violence.

BUt overall, when you think that the WHOLE M.E. conflict has killed around 100,000 people since 1950 (most being dead soldiers killed on the battlefield), it shows that this conflict, for all the press it gets, has been one of the least bloody of the last 50 years. On it's own way, that is a very sad commentary.

Can anyone find out if Israeli has been the state to see the most civilians dead from Suicide attacks? (OK, obviosuly not thanks to 9/11, but for his, ignore 9/11) The Tamil Tigers are very active in suicide attacks (no, not muslim) so Sri Lanka might be up there as well...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Zevico
Is it just me or is a comparison of numbers between Israeli and Palestinian casualties absolutely ridiculous?
One situation is a battle (in most cases), the other an explosion. How is this comparison in any way relevant?

Between stone throwing youths and tanks? Yes it is ridiculous.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Eli

Israel is occupying Palestinian land and violating the Fourth Geneva convention as well as UN resolutions. If Israelis want sympathy they can stop ****ing the Palestinians over. This attack was in response for an Israeli attack the previous day. I didn't see any pictures of that.

To sum it up, undiscriminate violence can be used as long as you think the goal is just.

It's amazing how you people are still in denial. YOU are in the wrong. YOU are the occupiers. YOU are the racists. And you want to play the victim.

Excuse me if I barf. The Jewish people, of all, should know better. And some of them do - unfortunately the lunatics are running things.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by PLATO
Just watched the video. My support for Israel is now absolute. Those murdering bastards don't deseve to live, let alone have their own country.

Who is "their"? The murdering bastards in question? Or the Palestinians at large? Do you oppose an independent "Scumland", or do you oppose an independent "Palestine"?

Slippery slope at its highest