Is Gibson a nazi!?

[Agathon]

If people want to see a real anti-semitic film, go see The Eternal Jew or Jew Suss. That's real antisemitic filmmaking.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Notice how the very first thing I write in the FIRST POST is "No, he is not, but.."

Reading is a wonderful skill, one of the Three R's, as it were.

As Cali suggested, the word "nazi" is in the title to titilate.

Perhaps it would be better if antisemitism, claims of antisemitism, and claims that the claim of antisemitism is being used falsely as a slander, were not used to titilate.

Yes there are some Jews who consider every critism of Israel antisemitic. And yes, there are some jews (and many non_jews) who consider no critism of Israel antisemitic. I, like most Jews, and at least a few non-Jews, see some criticisms of Israel as antisemitic, some as not, and some as borderline. There seems to me to be a great desire on some people parts to delegitimize that position, by implying that ANYONE who suggests that ANY critism of Israel is antisemitic is someone who says that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, and i dont like it one bit.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon

But that's not what most people do when they criticise Israel, yet people like Lawrence Summers want to call this antisemitism.



I never said that. What I am complaining about is the tendency to call all critics bigots in order to deflect criticism.

would you really like to discuss Larry Summers, his viewpoint and motivation?

[lord of the mark]

heres what he actually said

http://www.president.harvard.edu/spe...ngprayers.html

go ahead and read it.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



i havent seen the movie either, which is why i am withholding judgement.

By the way, one might keep in mind that the FACT you and others keep quoting is know only from the NT. One might as well site as fact that the world was destroyed in a flood in the time of Noah (yes, i know the NT has some value as a source for that period, but the above statement is NOT a fact, from the point of view of secular historians)

Getting a bit off the track aren't we? Whether you consider it a fact or not, to accurately portray the crucifixion as told in the bible, the role of the jewish leadership cannot be left out.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
heres what he actually said

http://www.president.harvard.edu/spe...ngprayers.html

go ahead and read it.

I've read it. You might want to read these:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n16/butl02_.html

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20040202&s=klug

[Agathon]

Summers' key phrase is:

Serious and thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-Semitic in their effect if not their intent.

That is at root a sophistical claim if it implies that no one should make such comments just because they might have such an effect.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
they monitor groups where they think there may be antisemitism, or hatred being fomented. Across the spectrum. Quite alot of rightwingers dislike them for the same reason, IIUC.

Then they turned that info over to the government.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon


I've read it. You might want to read these:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n16/butl02_.html

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mh...0040202&s=klug

Ms. Butler says "The counter-charge has been that in making his statement, Summers has struck a blow against academic freedom, in effect, if not in intent. Although he insisted that he meant nothing censorious by his remarks, and that he is in favour of Israeli policy being 'debated freely and civilly', his words have had a chilling effect on political discourse. "

Excuse me it was Larry Summers who was denouncing academic boycotts, and yet is is Summers who is accused of striking a blow AGAINST academic freedom?

Similarly, if Summers attacks a call for divestment aimed against Israel as antisemitic in intent, and ms Butler denounced Larry Summers for saying that, Summers is chilling discourse??? It seems to me that the same could be said with greater truth about Ms. Butler. That such a divestment campaing could be antisemitic in effect is certainly a possibility - if its his opinion that it is, why cant he say it. Why is it necessary to attack HIS speech rights??? If Ms. Butler wants to defend the diverstment campaign as not antisemitic she is free to, but Mr. Summers had every right to give his opinion.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon
Summers' key phrase is:



That is at root a sophistical claim if it implies that no one should make such comments just because they might have such an effect.

He didnt say might - he said in his opinion they DID have such impact. His opinion may be wrong, but it certainly makes sense to not take actions that ARE in effect antisemitic (or bigoted in any other fashion, i might add) and note, he said actions, not comments.

[chequita guevara]

I think the key thing that needs to be remembered is that the actor playing Jeses was struck twice by lightening on two different occasions during the filming. That alone tells me that God is displeased, and I'm an atheist.

[Sirotnikov]

Frankly it's all a bunch of nonsense.

I am no expert in the NT but I recall no event in which Jesus claims to be the son of god. As long as he doesn't do that - Jews shouldn't have a problem with him.

According to Jewish faith no one can tell who is a real profet / messiah besides himself and God, thus their persecution is unwise since you might hurt a messanger of God.

I'm not aware of any cases of jews prosecuting different movements of faith. Even today when the more religious movements despise the reformist movement, it is because of principal issues, and they never call for violence.

If anyone had a beef with Jesus, it were the Romans - since Jesus were starting a political movement. He tried to abolish a major trade center in Jerusalem too. Mainly he caused havoc and unrest where ever he went.

[lord of the mark]

klug says that when an arab in France attacks a Jew in France, someone whos not Israeli and maybe not even a supporter of Israel, its not antisemitism cause Israel claims to be the state of all Jews, many Jews agree, and its easy to get confused.

I disagree. The establishment of a state dedicated to Aliyah did not alter the fact that an attack on Jews qua Jews is antisemitic.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Frankly it's all a bunch of nonsense.

I am no expert in the NT but I recall no event in which Jesus claims to be the son of god. As long as he doesn't do that - Jews shouldn't have a problem with him.

You dont have a problem with say, Sabetai Zvi?? Claiming falsely to be the messiah (if Jesus did - not again my unwillingness to take NT as absolute historic source) is a serious thing in normative Judaism.

[lord of the mark]

By the way id really like to see a movie about Sabetai Zvi (17th C false messiah, who eventually converted to Islam, which some of his followers claimed was actually a mystical act)